How exactly is Harry "connected" to Voldemort?, Time for a poll Options

[Witherwings]

No... He "marked him as an equal" by accidentally making his scar a horcrux (not Harry... please READ an argument before refuting it) and putting a piece of his soul into it. The "mark" is an equal, since it counts as much as the piece of soul that is still Voldy. And Harry "shall have powers the Dark lord knows not"... They're not necessarily related to the mark. DD said it was simply the power to love. When you've read through the series two or three more times, we'll have a real chat.

1. Voldy
2. Harry's scar (accidentally created by a spell gone awry, but still a fragment of Voldy's soul)
3. The cup
4. The locket
5. The ring
6. Something of Gryffindor's or Ravenclaws (DD said the sword was the only "known" artifact)
7. Nagini (to replace the diary)

Capice?

And if you seriously think that DD would EVER tell Harry that he has a horcrux in his head... you really don't understand DD's motivation...
. . .
(At least Sirius and Lupin).

Okay, minus the snide comments - umm, NO - By book four, Voldemort wouldn't have known that the diary was lost and therefore wouldn't have needed to create another horcrux. Therefore your idea that Nagini replaces the diary is, umm, wrong.

The scar is not a horcrux. Plain and simple. It's a mark from being touched by magic. And, no, that's not how Voldemort marked him as his equal - he marked him as his equal by choosing Harry to begin with. Simple enough. Rowling loves Macbeth - the idea of the prophecy that Rowling believes is that if a character doesn't seek to fulfill the prophecy (or doesn't hear the prophecy) it won't be fulfilled. The fact that Voldemort went to Harry is what marked Harry as his equal - not the scar itself.

And I'm sorry, oh enlightened one who knows all of Rowling's motivations for her characters, but I do think DD would have told Harry if his scar was a horcrux because he is trying to help Harry to survive. He gave Harry the list or horcruxes to help him so that he would know which ones to seek out and destroy. I think he would've told Harry his scar was a horcrux by the time he died to help Harry finally defeat Voldemort.

Assuming, and it's a massive assumption, that Harry's scar is a horcrux that gives Voldemort insight into Harry's mind, you stated other members of the Order, or at least Sirius and Lupin, would know it. Sirius is dead - he died in book five. Maybe you need to reread the books there yourself.

This post has been edited by Witherwings: Apr 16 2007, 01:12 AM

[Dijares]

Perseus and Witherwings,

I know that you both truly believe in your own opinions, but, as hard as it might be, you must respect the other person's opinion. I know it's difficult, because you really can't see how their opinion/belief would be correct, but that doesn't matter. Either I see you both get along, or you both are banned for a week.

Now, shake hands (yes, I know you hate it), apologize, and let's get on with the theories.

Cheers,
dij

[Perseus_Evans]

Perseus and Witherwings,

I know that you both truly believe in your own opinions, but, as hard as it might be, you must respect the other person's opinion. I know it's difficult, because you really can't see how their opinion/belief would be correct, but that doesn't matter. Either I see you both get along, or you both are banned for a week.

Now, shake hands (yes, I know you hate it), apologize, and let's get on with the theories.

Cheers,
dij

I dunno Dij... This is the only time someone has actually gone toe to toe with me and not ended up sounding shrill, but instead argues well. And I don't mind being banned if need be... It will make it all the sweeter if I turn out to be correct.

Wither, again, you missed my point... But I'll try to be respectful (the "oh enlightened one" comment was pretty funny actually)

It was never established that Nagini was made a Horcrux until Harry saw the attack on Arthur through its eyes. That was in that book you said I didn't read. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I believe that when Lucius revealed the fate of the Diary, which didn't occur until book 5 (the terrible beholding of the wrath and all...), he then made his faithful pet Nagini into another horcrux (the flaw in my theory is that I don't have a candidate for the significant death...).

In any case though... here's a couple more reasons I think my theory is probably correct.

DD is a smart wizard, we all agree. He's always kind of stood back and let Harry find his way, rather than tell him everything. Throughout the books he's said he'll tell Harry the truth, but it's always been riddled (forgive the pun) with half-truths.

And if DD is so smart, why didn't he account for the need for Voldy to replace the Diary when he counted up the horcruxes? Seems kind of obvious to me that Voldy would want the number of active horcruxes to be at 7... So why not mention this factor to Harry? Half-truths...

And DD's trip down pensieve memory lane in HBP suggests he understands the motivations behind Voldy's actions. I'm suggesting he held back this one piece of information, because he knew that Harry would want to destroy himself (play the hero and sacrifice himself), if he found his scar to be one of the horcruxes. He could also very easily misinterpret the meaning of the prophecy to be that the scar is what gave him power to destroy the dark lord.

Also... the structure of the series is strong. The very first thing that we hear is that the scar itself may be useful, and my gut is that it's a means by which DD could see the downfall of Voldy. The scar is critical to the plot, and we even know it's the last word of the series. DD had 11 years to ponder the possible ways that Harry would be able to defeat Voldy, knowing the prophecy. And he's a smart wizard.

One other tidbit, is that JKR was originally considering revealing that the diary was a horcrux at the end of book 2 (I do speculate on her motivation here, since her exact wording was cryptic), but felt that piece of information to be more appropriately revealed in book 6. She didn't want to have everyone aware of horcruxes as they read PoA, GoF, and OotP, because (in my not-always-so-humble opinion) she was afraid it would ruin the ending.

And hey... I'll say it. I could be wrong. But I have read the series over and over (probably a bit too many times actually). And every time through, I find more bits of evidence to support my theory. You're entitled to your opinion, but I have to keep arguing until someone gives me hard evidence that I'm wrong.

This post has been edited by Perseus_Evans: Apr 16 2007, 10:27 AM

[baty4potter]

Ok Perseus, so let's say that Voldemort created another horcrux because one was destroyed, he has now divided his soul again. Yes, only seven exist, but making the *other* seventh one doesn't bring back the one that was destroyed. So in essence Voldemort still lost part of his soul, and would have split it again making him even more less then whole. Does this make sense?

Also, my question about Harry being a Horcrux... Why would Voldemort make someone a Horcrux knowing that he was going to kill him, and thus killing a part of himself? It really just doesn't add up to me. But then again you know my track record..... Dumbledore is Dead!!! :~/

[Perseus_Evans]

Oh baty not you too??? Now I'm starting to think you're all messing with me... lol

I really don't think Harry himself is a horcrux. I believe the scar on the other hand IS.

The scar is the mark of the curse that failed, and I believe it is a distinct and separate thing from Harry.

I believe the sequence goes like this... (and yes... convoluted is a word for the theory)

1. Voldy enters the Potter house and tells James and Lily to get out of the way
2. James tells Lily to go get protect Harry, gets snuffed (Mr. Not-be-named's soul still gets split regardless of whether a Horcrux is made)
3. Lord Thingy enters Harry's bedroom and tells Lily not to be silly, but she refuses to give in, also gets snuffed. (soul splits again... still no horcrux... My point here is to show that he's never been concerned with the number of times he's frayed his soul, but only concerned with the number of vessels he's used to save a piece. Or he'd have only ever committed 6 murders)
4. With just Harry left, Voldy begins preparing the seventh horcrux (sixth object, since he's already #7, and may be found in Godric's Hollow when Harry goes to the site of his parent's deaths). The spell is not simple and needs to be in place prior to the murder to extract the split piece of soul.
5. He positions the object carefully, knowing there will only be a small window of opportunity to catch the soul fragment.
6. He points his wand and casts the Avada Kedavra on Harry
7. The old magic of Lily's sacrifice causes the curse to fail and rebound
8. Voldy's death is a violent one because of his power, and he literally implodes
9. The object is thrown out of the way and the soul fragment is sucked into the most powerful other object... Harry
10. But having been protected by Lily, the fragment is unable to embed itself completely into Harry, but breaks the skin on his forehead
11. Harry is left with a wound that will never quite heal, with a little piece of Voldy embedded in his forehead

Now there will always be the question of whether this qualifies the scar as a Horcrux or not, but if it was a piece of Voldemort's soul, then it might as well be.

As for Voldy not wanting to replace the diary, I tend to think that it would be very unlike him to be so concerned over the integrity of his soul. The guy is living a cursed life anyway... a half life... (who am I? Firenze??... sheesh) I think he would be much more concerned with the integrity of his plan to have 7 objects of power with his soul hidden within...

All down to opinion, as always...

This post has been edited by Perseus_Evans: Apr 16 2007, 08:28 PM

[baty4potter]

Oh Perseus, I'm not trying to mess with you, I at one time gave it some thought. But it just doesn't add up for me. I'm getting ready to head for work, but will read your post in length when I get home.

On question, the scar... It is attached to Harry wouldn't it in essence make Harry the Horcrux? Let me think more on this... You might have a good point~~~

[Perseus_Evans]

Real quick... the distinction to me is that a horcrux must be destroyed or torn apart to destroy the piece of soul, as was the case with Marvolo's ring and the Diary.

If Harry's scar is the horcrux, it could potentially be destroyed without making it necessary that Harry die...

[Witherwings]

Real quick... the distinction to me is that a horcrux must be destroyed or torn apart to destroy the piece of soul, as was the case with Marvolo's ring and the Diary.

If Harry's scar is the horcrux, it could potentially be destroyed without making it necessary that Harry die...

However, the ring was cracked and the diary was impaled. There would be some damage to Harry if he had to destroy a possible horcrux contained in a scar on his body, perhaps not death.

[Perseus_Evans]

Harry's tough... He's had some injuries...

Regrowing some bones... Dragon tail spikes in the shoulder... Acromatula broke his leg...

A gouge on his forehead will be easy to bear, I think, should it come to that. Besides, if I'm right, Voldy didn't add any extra protection or curses to the scar, since he didn't mean to do it. The ring was cursed and Harry only impaled the diary for the expediency of it...

I'm getting the impression Wither, from your many many posts, that you think Harry is frail and a strong wind will blow him over. I personally think it's a result of watching the somewhat-unimpressive Daniel Radcliffe portray him.

He's been in two major battles with groups of Death Eaters and come out on top. He's shown impressive skill in defense against the dark arts... The fact is, he's got courage and experience that no other wizard has... And fear has always been Voldy's greatest weapon, hasn't it?

[Witherwings]

I'm getting the impression Wither, from your many many posts, that you think Harry is frail and a strong wind will blow him over. I personally think it's a result of watching the somewhat-unimpressive Daniel Radcliffe portray him.

I don't think he's weak. I don't think he's near where his father and mother were as students, but then they had knowledge of things when he was younger. I think he's pretty strong and I think Daniel Radcliffe does a pretty decent job portraying him. I just think the scar, if a horcrux, would damage Harry if it had to be destroyed - that's not saying he's weak. I definitely think Ron is weak, but not Harry.

BTW, could the award Riddle received (Award in recognition of special services to the school mentioned in book 2) be a horcrux? Rowling did say that she waited until book 6 to discuss horcruxes, a topic that appears in book 2 but she wasn't ready to develop.

This post has been edited by Witherwings: Apr 18 2007, 10:38 PM

[WickedWitchOfThe...]

(but not Gryffindor's, according to DD, because the only known object of Gryffindor's is the sword in DD's office)

Of which DD was wrong. He had something else of Gryffindor's sitting right behind him in his office, the Sorting Hat.

1. Voldy
2. Harry's scar (accidentally created by a spell gone awry, but still a fragment of Voldy's soul)
3. The cup
4. The locket
5. The ring
6. Something of Gryffindor's or Ravenclaws (DD said the sword was the only "known" artifact)
7. Nagini (to replace the diary)

Perseus, you're missing V himself. He must be counted since he has a piece of his soul in his body. Unless he doesn't? But is that possible?

This is the only time someone has actually gone toe to toe with me and not ended up sounding shrill, but instead argues well.

I sounded shrill! I'm truly hurt! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/weeping.gif)

My point here is to show that he's never been concerned with the number of times he's frayed his soul, but only concerned with the number of vessels he's used to save a piece. Or he'd have only ever committed 6 murders

Backed by DD. He said that V's killed enough to create an army of Inferi. So no, V has never been concerned with how many times he's split his soul, only how many things contain pieces of it.

BTW, could the award Riddle received (Award in recognition of special services to the school mentioned in book 2) be a horcrux? Rowling did say that she waited until book 6 to discuss horcruxes, a topic that appears in book 2 but she wasn't ready to develop.

That's been a thought of mine for a very long time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Witherwings]

Of which DD was wrong. He had something else of Gryffindor's sitting right behind him in his office, the Sorting Hat.

But didn't the hat belong to all four original founders and not just Gryffindor?

Perseus, you're missing V himself. He must be counted since he has a piece of his soul in his body. Unless he doesn't? But is that possible?

I don't think it is. I think Voldemort only would have split his soul into seven parts.

Backed by DD. He said that V's killed enough to create an army of Inferi. So no, V has never been concerned with how many times he's split his soul, only how many things contain pieces of it.

I think Dumbledore includes the orders Voldemort gave to others here. Also, we know he's killed more than seven times - Riddle, Riddle's father and mother, Harry's mother and father, Bertha Jorkins, the old man, Amelia Bones (assumed), Moaning Myrtle, and who knows how many others. However, not every time that he killed did he split his soul to create a horcrux - he only did that for important murders.

That's been a thought of mine for a very long time.

Cool. It makes sense that, if he returned to Hogwarts, he would have turned his own award into a horcrux. Certainly keeps with his narcissistic ideas.


This post has been edited by Witherwings: Apr 19 2007, 04:48 PM

[WickedWitchOfThe...]

But didn't the hat belong to all four original founders and not just Gryffindor?

Nope. It was Gryffindor's. Read the Sorting Hat's song in GOF. I don't have time to type it out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I think Dumbledore includes the orders Voldemort gave to others here. Also, we know he's killed more than seven times - Riddle, Riddle's father and mother, Harry's mother and father, Bertha Jorkins, the old man, Amelia Bones (assumed), Moaning Myrtle, and who knows how many others.

I don't. V is evil. He killed as much as he wanted. And as you said, he's killed more than seven times.

However, not every time that he killed did he split his soul to create a horcrux - he only did that for important murders.

You're right. He did not only split his soul to make Horcruxes. He split it everytime he murdered somebody. He created the Horcruxes from pieces of his soul when he felt like doing so.

[crmhpfan]

Perseus, you're missing V himself. He must be counted since he has a piece of his soul in his body. Unless he doesn't? But is that possible?

I just re-read HBP, and Dumbledore says somewhere theat Voldemort is definetley one of the seven.

[baty4potter]

I just re-read HBP, and Dumbledore says somewhere theat Voldemort is definetley one of the seven.

Well you beat me to the punch, I just read that a couple of weeks ago myself, and you are very correct. Voldemort is the seventh, and so I am *assuming* that since this is the case if Harry would destroy the six horcruxes then Voldemort would be left in a very sad state. So.... Would it be necessary to kill Voldemort or just kill him with loving and kindness?

[the_prisoner_of_...]

Just a small thing no one can say Harry IS or ISN'T a horcrux. Only JKR knows with certainty, no matter how much faith we each have in our opinions (hehe I'm a sucker for the way things are phrased so feel free to ignore me).

Personally I have to say I don't think Harry or his scar is a horcrux, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Firstly, I believe the process of making a horcrux is much to complex to just happen by accident and I'm pretty sure Slughorn said it was a spell, with Voldy didn't have time to perform. I mean...he had no time to do anything. But I'll write more when I have the time.

I also follow the Special Services Trophy idea. It seems so logical and when I read Dumbledore say about "trophies" it clicked...well even though he wasnt talking about actual trophies. But I mean it was a very evil act, a trophy for frameing Hagrid.

[Perseus_Evans]

Perseus, you're missing V himself. He must be counted since he has a piece of his soul in his body. Unless he doesn't? But is that possible?

I did list him as number 1... numero uno... the cheese...

I just called him by his pet name "Voldy"

1. Voldy
2. Harry's scar (accidentally created by a spell gone awry, but still a fragment of Voldy's soul)
3. The cup
4. The locket
5. The ring
6. Something of Gryffindor's or Ravenclaws (DD said the sword was the only "known" artifact)
7. Nagini (to replace the diary)

So my question to all remains... Do you agree that it's in Voldy's nature to leave the diary unreplaced? And to those who don't believe Harry's scar or himself is a horcrux... Did DD miscount, or does he think Voldy would not wish to replace it?

This post has been edited by Perseus_Evans: Apr 20 2007, 04:59 PM

[baty4potter]

I did list him as number 1... numero uno... the cheese...

I just called him by his pet name "Voldy"

1. Voldy
2. Harry's scar (accidentally created by a spell gone awry, but still a fragment of Voldy's soul)
3. The cup
4. The locket
5. The ring
6. Something of Gryffindor's or Ravenclaws (DD said the sword was the only "known" artifact)
7. Nagini (to replace the diary)

So my question to all remains... Do you agree that it's in Voldy's nature to leave the diary unreplaced? And to those who don't believe Harry's scar or himself is a horcrux... Did DD miscount, or does he think Voldy would not wish to replace it?

I don't think that Voldemort would replace the diary. I can't give a good reason why except that maybe he decided what he had was enough. No I still don't think Harry's scar is a horcrux, but like I've said before, Perseus, I've been wrong before, and if you are right I will sing praises to you!! Tis true I promise. :~)

[Witherwings]

I don't think that Voldemort would replace the diary. I can't give a good reason why except that maybe he decided what he had was enough. No I still don't think Harry's scar is a horcrux, but like I've said before, Perseus, I've been wrong before, and if you are right I will sing praises to you!! Tis true I promise. :~)

I think you're right about not replacing the diary. According to Dumbledore, he wouldn't have found out about the diary until book five. However, I think the visual psychic connection (seeing, not just feeling) between Harry and Voldemort is not the horcrux connection, but rather the blood used to reawaken Voldemort. I think the fact that Voldemort has Harry's blood in him is going to be significant at the end - after all, when Harry tells DD about the incident of the reincarnation, he perceives that Dumbledore smiles but then feels he might have imagined it. I think this is going to be how Harry destroys Voldemort at the end.

[WickedWitchOfThe...]

I did list him as number 1... numero uno... the cheese...

I just called him by his pet name "Voldy"

LOL! Boy did I miss that one while reading! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Sorry! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Do you agree that it's in Voldy's nature to leave the diary unreplaced?

I think that would have to depend on how we each interpret V. To me, I would say yes, only because in my opinion V would count that as another Horcrux, thus taking him past the magical number of seven. True, he would have seven active Horcruxes, but he would still technically have put the number at eight.

Did DD miscount

Using your theory of it accidentally happening, I don't think it would be a matter of miscounting, but of missing Harry and using Nagini instead as the final one.

According to Dumbledore, he wouldn't have found out about the diary until book five.

True. I'll explain my "but" below......

By my own interpretation of the way it works, V has split his soul numerous times with all the murders he has committed. If there were no Horcruxes at all and he'd committed murder 100 times, he would have 101 pieces of soul in his body. He'd have the whole soul inside him, but it would be broken. So he makes 6 Horcruxes and counts himself as one. 6 objects have pieces of soul inside them, leaving him as the seventh Horcrux with 95 pieces of his broken soul inside his being. He is free to make those Horcruxes at any time he feels and reserves it specially for when he murders a person with some significance, in his mind, using the spell that we know he must perform to make a Horcrux. (This would be easier if I could remember all the significant deaths.)

Now, DD did say that Harry's death would have been significant. But, I think DD forgot someone, Neville. V did choose to go to the Potters' first, but there was still one other on his hit list. I believe that after V finished off both those that were his potential downfall, that then he would have made his Horcrux. Now, if it was a spell that you would say shortly before or after killing someone, V should not have been saying it around Harry's death, but rather when he was finished with both the boys. Does that make sense? I mean, V knew that there were two potential candidates, yet he chose to attack the half-blood first and met his downfall there, not getting the chance to get rid of Neville. So, if you have to say it around the time of the death, then he shouldn't have been saying it when he tried to kill Harry at all. So I still believe that a Horcrux can be made at any time, as long as you have broken your soul at least once.

As for my "but", I can now say that Nagini could have been made a Horcrux at any time and that it is quite possible, given that Harry slipped through his fingers in the graveyard, V forwent his significant death feelings and decided it was time to make his final Horcrux to hurry up and bring his total to seven.

I think the fact that Voldemort has Harry's blood in him is going to be significant at the end - after all, when Harry tells DD about the incident of the reincarnation, he perceives that Dumbledore smiles but then feels he might have imagined it. I think this is going to be how Harry destroys Voldemort at the end.

I also believe this. It goes back to my thoughts about whether Harry will be able to destroy V from the inside out using his blood and the love that is inside him inside the "love room" to somehow project his feelings of love for others into V.