Secret Keeper and Order of the Phoenix, After Dumbledore dies Options

[Witherwings]

Rowling, on her web-site, states that when a secret-keeper dies, the secret dies with him/her. She put the dark mark on this post indicating that it's a spoiler. Does that mean that no one but the current Order will have access to 12 Grimauld Place? Does that mean that no one can use 12 Grimauld Place? And now that DD is dead and, per his role as secret keeper, the Order's secrets die with him, what does that mean for the Order? Can it continue to exist? If so, who will lead it and can there be another secret keeper?

[Dijares]

Rowling, on her web-site, states that when a secret-keeper dies, the secret dies with him/her. She put the dark mark on this post indicating that it's a spoiler. Does that mean that no one but the current Order will have access to 12 Grimauld Place? Does that mean that no one can use 12 Grimauld Place? And now that DD is dead and, per his role as secret keeper, the Order's secrets die with him, what does that mean for the Order? Can it continue to exist? If so, who will lead it and can there be another secret keeper?

I don't think so. Those who have been told about 12 Grimauld place can continue to be there, and I think that, since DD is gone, another can be made to be the secret keeper. The Order will definitely continue to exists. There was no secret keeper for the Order, only for their HQ (headquarters).

[potter_freak24]

I think people that know about 12 Grimauld place in general can find it. but they don't know that it was the head quarters for the order. So i think they will just redo the charm and keep using the location.

[WickedWitchOfThe...]

Rowling, on her web-site, states that when a secret-keeper dies, the secret dies with him/her. She put the dark mark on this post indicating that it's a spoiler. Does that mean that no one but the current Order will have access to 12 Grimauld Place? Does that mean that no one can use 12 Grimauld Place? And now that DD is dead and, per his role as secret keeper, the Order's secrets die with him, what does that mean for the Order? Can it continue to exist? If so, who will lead it and can there be another secret keeper?

I know this has been asked before. I've gotta find the topic. But, first question, yes. Only those who already know the location can find it. Second question, no. Those who have been told the secret prior to DD's demise may still use it. Third and fourth questions, the Order will continue. It must. Last bit, I have no idea who will lead it, but there can be another Secret-Keeper. It isn't limited to only one person forever.

There was no secret keeper for the Order, only for their HQ (headquarters).

Not quite, Dij. DD was the secret-keeper for the Order. All their secrets he held and the HQ was one of those. Any other Order secrets he also held died with him.

[the_prisoner_of_...]

I know this has been asked before. I've gotta find the topic.

I'm not sure if it's what you're looking for but we disccussed it in the Godric's Hollow topic.

[Witherwings]

Not quite, Dij. DD was the secret-keeper for the Order. All their secrets he held and the HQ was one of those. Any other Order secrets he also held died with him.

Yes, in the OotP, Sirius tells Harry that DD is secret keeper for the Order, not just about 12 Grimauld Place. So, if when he dies, the secrets die with him (as told by Rowling on her web-site), and if no one can be given information the Secret Keeper holds unless given by the Secret Keeper (as said in Book 3), how can this information then be shared with others?

[WickedWitchOfThe...]

I'm not sure if it's what you're looking for but we disccussed it in the Godric's Hollow topic.

Maybe that's it. I'll have to take a peek when I've got a bit of time. Thank TPOA! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

So, if when he dies, the secrets die with him (as told by Rowling on her web-site), and if no one can be given information the Secret Keeper holds unless given by the Secret Keeper (as said in Book 3), how can this information then be shared with others?

It can't. Only those the SK has already told can use that information.

[Witherwings]

It can't. Only those the SK has already told can use that information.

Question: Dumbledore repeatedly mentioned 12 Grimauld Place in front of the Dursley's in the last book - can they then access 12 Grimauld Place? Perhaps this will be necessary if something happens to the Dursley home in the last book.

[WickedWitchOfThe...]

That is a good question. But DD never looked at them and said to them that 12 Grimmauld Place is the HQ for the Order of the Phoenix. So I don't think they would be able to find it.

Secrets and Secret-Keepers are an issue that have not been given enough information out about for us to be certain in our assumptions. I've gone over it before on this Board about those who knew the location, such as Bellatrix, from before it was the HQ and whether they could still find it or not, even if they had gone there every weekend as a child. And to be honest, I can't remember if we ever came to a conclusion. We might have, but I can't remember. It's just one of those things where we try to make the most sense out of what information we have got and use it as best we can. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Witherwings]

That is a good question. But DD never looked at them and said to them that 12 Grimmauld Place is the HQ for the Order of the Phoenix. So I don't think they would be able to find it.

Secrets and Secret-Keepers are an issue that have not been given enough information out about for us to be certain in our assumptions. I've gone over it before on this Board about those who knew the location, such as Bellatrix, from before it was the HQ and whether they could still find it or not, even if they had gone there every weekend as a child. And to be honest, I can't remember if we ever came to a conclusion. We might have, but I can't remember. It's just one of those things where we try to make the most sense out of what information we have got and use it as best we can. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think this is where Book Three is important:

"'An immensely complex spell,' he said, "involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find - unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!'" (205, HC of PoA) Maybe we should discuss this quote and its ramifications.

This post has been edited by Witherwings: Apr 19 2007, 05:23 PM

[WickedWitchOfThe...]

Let's make it more fun, shall we? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Let's add this quote too:

What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?


When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.

Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works, it is

"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it" (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)

In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.

[Witherwings]

Let's make it more fun, shall we? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Let's add this quote too:

Like Hogwarts being unplottable, we know 12 Grimauld Place was also unplottable. Add to that the information on the headquarters, and 12 Grimauld Place can only be accessed by those who were told by Dumbledore that 12 Grimauld Place is the headquarters (which makes sense since Kreacher couldn't reveal the location to Bellatrix in book five). If the secret dies with him then no one can tell anyone else where the headquarters to the Order is. So there can be another secret-keeper, but that secret-keeper cannot, then, reveal the location of the headquarters to anyone who hasn't already been there. I think it will be interesting to see if the Dursleys have to move in with Harry and the Order at 12 Grimauld Place in book seven.

[WickedWitchOfThe...]

I think it will be interesting to see if the Dursleys have to move in with Harry and the Order at 12 Grimauld Place in book seven.

Why would they? For their own protection? We know that they cannot reveal the location of 12 Grimmauld Place. And that Harry is still protected at their house until he turns seventeen. Do you think that V might attack Privet Dr. on that day?

[Witherwings]

Why would they? For their own protection? We know that they cannot reveal the location of 12 Grimmauld Place. And that Harry is still protected at their house until he turns seventeen. Do you think that V might attack Privet Dr. on that day?

Well, that is what I'm thinking - that Voldemort is going to attack the Dursley's house (maybe not on the day he turns 17) and the Dursleys are going to need Harry's help. Would be a great twist to end the series with too - the Dursleys have to rely on Harry's kindness when they've shown him little. Anyway, I do think Dumbledore was making preparations just in case that happened, even if it doesn't actually happen.