Mundungus Fletcher, Thief or agent of the Order? Options

[Perseus_Evans]

Here's an interesting little thing that may indirectly prove that Albus is coming back...

When the trio comes across Mundungus in Hogsmeade, he is there with Aberforth (we believe) and a case full of Black family heirlooms... After Mundungus disapparates, Tonks shows up and is thoroughly unconcerned over his thievery. Harry chalks it up to her grieving over Sirius, but we know that's not really why Tonks has been upset, so what gives?

I have brought similar things to light in previous posts, but follow this one with me...

Mundungus has brought this to Aberforth on assignment for the Order. Why? Because he was told too. Proof? Tonks knows it's part of the plan.

If that's true, then he found Slytherin's locket in the house and Albus (please note that I've gone with the first names here to make a point later) knows about it. You ask "Why did he tell Harry that the locket was still out there?" My answer is one I've given before... Albus knows that Voldemort can eavesdrop on Harry's mind without Harry knowing, because Snape told him so. (This is also why Snape tried to give that last bit of advice during the Flight of the Prince chapter, in my opinion) So Albus must lie to Harry, so that Voldemort can continue to feel that the locket is safely hidden in the cave.

For a longer version of all the other reasons Albus is alive, check the archived threads for mine and baty's long list of evidence in various posts...

If Albus knew about the locket, then he also knew the trip to the cave was a futile effort, but only did it as an educational experience for Harry. So Harry would know what he was up against, when he went on his own quest for the horcruxes.

So... then we come to the toughest piece of evidence to overcome... JKR herself said something along the lines of "Dumbledore is dead" and "Don't expect Dumbledore to pull a Gandalf..."

Two things here: Either she's lied to protect the biggest twist in the series (which is entirely possible) OR she's used carefully chosen words. Yes Dumbledore is dead... but is it Albus or Aberforth? Was it a polyjuice potion? A switching spell (something we've heard a lot about but never had a description of the spell or the limitations, not to mention a form of transfiguration which was Albus's subject)? Was the whole scene on the tower staged to prevent the Unbreakable Vow from affecting Snape's cover? So many possibilities...

But no matter what... I think she had the forethought to include Aberforth in the endgame so she'd have the ability to hoodwink the entire world with that simple choice of words. When asked about it later she can simply respond: "I couldn't evade the question without revealing too much, so my only option was to lie in order to protect the story's final twists... It wasn't an easy choice, but it was the right one."

So much other evidence has been raised... The idea of the Phoenix. The fact that Snape had told Albus about the unbreakable vow. The fact that he immobilized Harry. The fact that his body is shrouded. The fact that we've had this happen before with Barty Crouch Jr and his mother. The fact that Voldy suddenly decides not to use his most convenient means of spying on Albus. The fact that Albus was missing from the school for long periods. The fact that we already knew that the Avada Kedavra is only effective if you mean it. The fact that Snape has extensive abilities in the use of non-verbal spells. The fact that Snape told us in the very first potions class that he could teach one how to put a stopper in death.

I could go on and on and on....

But I keep finding other hints as I reread HBP, and I now officially believe it again.

baty... you will win your bet.

[You-Know-Poo]

Wow

But this evidence doesn't hold up with two things
What if the person wasn't Aberworth
What if Tonks was actually depressed over Serious ( I can't think right now)

Very in depth and knoledgeable


This post has been edited by You-Know-Poo: Jun 19 2007, 04:51 PM

[baty4potter]

Wow (IMG:style_emoticons/default/highfive.gif)

But this evidence doesn't hold up with two things
What if the person wasn't Aberworth
What if Tonks was actually depressed over Serious ( I can't think right now)

Very in depth and knoledgeable

Makes me wonder
Are you JKR herself, or Alber Einstein (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I think you missed his whole point. :~/




OMG Perseus, if you were here I'd have to give you a HUGE kiss!!! When reading, and the first thing you said about JK lying, I thought, OMG WWW will always hate her. But leaving the other part of your theory out... Why would JK give the biggest twist to her story away. Sorry WWW, but I hope she's lying.

Now down to business... As we all know, you are very correct in quoting JK that Dumbledore was dead. We have both discussed the Levicorpus/Libracorpus, and how he seemed to suspend in mid air, and tumbled slowly to the ground, and all those other reasons we feel Dumbledore didn't die. But....

Perseus you are a Genius!! Even if it isn't true I have never seen anyone take a book like you have and totally pick it apart to find clues. The Dumbledore theory of it being Aberforth instead of Albus I would never even have given it a thought, as far as JK admitting Dumbledore was dead, and it being Aberforth. Excellent catch!!! I have said several times that it could have been Aberforth, and the polyjuice potion, but not even thinking the Dumbledore dead theory and JK was referring to Aberforth, OMG I feel so Dense! So WWW if this is the case JK really wouldn't be lying!!! lalalalala

JK said if you could figure out PS/SS you could figure out the ending, (no, I'm not going to go and find the quote) and by God, you mentioned the fact that Snape told us in the very first potions class that he could teach one how to put a stopper in death, which was in that first book. I also believe there are many more clues to it, and if I had the time, and the back right now, I'd find all my notes on it and put it here.

No matter what Perseus, you are a very good detective when it comes to digging into books and figuring out clues. You gave me just a bit of hope!!! I love you Perseus!!! hehe Hey, have you ever thought about going into writing? :~)

I am STOAKED!!!

[You-Know-Poo]

name='You-Know-Poo' date='Jun 19 2007, 10:34 AM' post='128743'
What if Tonks was actually depressed over Serious ( I can't think right now)

See, I wasn't lying. OOPS

[baty4potter]

See, I wasn't lying. OOPS

But the thought is what *if* she wasn't upset about Sirius? Or, maybe she was but still knew what was going on. Or maybe she was and..... What if what Perseus' theory is correct. Go with us here just a bit....

Hypothetically thinking it is possible what Perseus has suggested is true. If Dumbledore is dead, it is very possible JK was referring to Aberforth. If not it was a brilliant idea anyway.

[Hermione@13]

Wow, it's very well thought out! Although, why would he take Sirius' family heirlooms, also? If I am correct in remembering, Harry was shouting about Mundungus taking the items. Even if he was sent there then why did Tonks take no notice into him stealing Harry's stuff? Is it because she is still sad about Lupin, therefore distracted? Did the Order let him take the things so to persuade him to take the locket for them. OR was the weather so bad that Tonks couldn't understand Harry that well? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[Perseus_Evans]

Sorry I didn't explain too well. One of my main thoughts was lost by my revelation... I'm saying that Mundungus had been instructed by Albus to bring all the items of interest from Number 12. And that Harry assumed that the reason she didn't react with the same anger he felt was that Tonks was sad about Sirius, but I believe it was because she knew exactly why Mung was doing it...

On another note... I have now figured out a spoiler of such magnitude I'm reluctant to post it, for fear of ruining the ending more than I already have. Highlight the text below if you must know my theory. If you're at all worried that I might have figured out the puzzle... don't do it.

I have baty to thank, for reminding me that JKR had once stated that a major part of the end to that story was revealed in PS/SS.

I have actually toyed with this theory before, but I've finally deciphered the anagram that is Albus' full name...

Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore = Nicolas Flamel Blubber Arc Druid Purview

Ask yourself this question... why is Voldy so afraid of Albus? Voldy is afraid of death, so it makes sense that he would fear a person who had achieved immortality by creating the soreceror's/philosopher's stone...

I believe that Nicolas and Albus are the same person. There's more to it, but I'll leave it there for now...

This post has been edited by Perseus_Evans: Jun 19 2007, 08:10 PM

[You-Know-Poo]

You are surely a genius (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Nossist]

Wasnt Tonks upset due to Lupin? that was a twist cause everyone thought she was upset over Sirius' death but in truth she was upset because Lupin didnt think they could be together.

[baty4potter]

Hey Perseus, as far as the Albus and Flamel theory, I had been knocked up along side the head for that one long ago, but still think it's a possibility just the same. Isn't anything a possibility at this point in time until the book comes out?

I'm flying with you on this, and I appreciate you putting your post under cover, but you are just theorizing, and as far as I'm concerned it isn't a spoiler because you haven't read the book and we are talking about how what we think is going to happen.

Thanks for your thoughts and theories and KEEP THEM COMING!!!

[Perseus_Evans]

yeah, baty... not technically a spoiler, but it was something that I think is too much of a coincidence to not be true, and because I'm so very sure I'm right (probably wrong actually, but covering all avenues here), I wanted to give the opportunity to avoid reading it accidentally if someone really doesn't want to know such things...

The other factor that proves it for me is that alchemaic symbol on the spine of the children's version... Old magic and alchemy seem to me to be related...

The fact that it's a philosopher's stone is a key as well. What better commentary on life than to find that the secret magic behind wealth and long life is the ability to truly love (a noble philosophy indeed, and the underlying message of the series in total). I believe the stone itself to be made of purified and distilled love, actually.

Here's another little aspect of the theory... "Nitwit, Blubber, Oddment, Tweak... "

JKR saying... "You nitwit, blubber is an oddment (something out of place)... tweak it."

Leaving the words purview (authority or knowledge)... arc (a direction of a story)... and druid (ancient rune-using magical folk in england...)

And oh by the way... the scene on the US cover may be at Stonehenge...

Am I grasping at straws? Maybe, but does JKR ever really leave anything random... no not so far... My most convoluted theory of all might actually be the only one that turns out to be true. There's some irony for you.

[You-Know-Poo]

Your theories are GENIUS
But people as young as 10 year olds read these books. What you're getting into is complicated

Explain better what you are trying to say
Where did purview, arc, and druid come from?

And what about what Dumbledore says?
Are the anagrams?

[Perseus_Evans]

Check the anagram in my hidden post and you'll see those words.

I will say no more on that for now.

Nitwit, Blubber, Oddment, Tweak... Those are the few (seemingly random) words DD used at the Welcome feast in... I think it was Prisoner of Azkaban.

Oh... one last bit relating to the Stone... One of the legendary goals of alchemy was to be able to convert lead to gold...

Lead is usually silver in color, and is poisonous in quantity. Gold is... um... well... golden and highly valued. Sound like the colors of the houses to anyone? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Layer by layer... JKR's genius is what continues to reveal itself.

[baty4potter]

I am going to say this Perseus, that if I thought you got your information from a spoiler source I would have deleted your post. We all know that what you and I are saying has been said for sometime now, and that no matter how much we think our theories might be correct it is all still speculation and until JK drops the curtain, we won't know for sure.

But again, it's all speculation, and theories so have at it, and by God Perseus you and I are going to be proven correct, and there is going to be a running down one's driveway and ...... BABY IT AIN'T GOING TO BE ME!!! lalalalala ;~}~~~~~

[Hermione@13]

One of my main thoughts was lost by my revelation... I'm saying that Mundungus had been instructed by Albus to bring all the items of interest from Number 12.

Hmmm...that's sort of weird. Why would DD instruct Mundungus to give Aberforth stolen goods? Were they full of Dark Magic and therefore dangerous?

[Perseus_Evans]

Indeed baty... I know it's all just theory and conjecture, but because I feel like I may have finally deciphered JKR's trail of evidence, I wonder whether I would want to know, as someone who has only read the book a couple times... Perspective is always our own and so it's hard to truly look at it from outside ourselves.

No matter what... If I am right... driveway streaking will ensue...

But if I'm wrong (kinda hope I am, just so I haven't spoiled my OWN surprise) so be it. If I'm right, at least I've finally figured out why she gave DD such a long name... I mean c'mon! Brian????? Sheesh! (I suppose it could be a weird Monty Python tribute though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

Ok... I just realized that there's a flaw that someone will probably point out. JKR did state that Dumbledore's age was about 150, considerably younger than my theory would allow... Unless he was born on February 29th...

Wow I'm really grasping at straws here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by Perseus_Evans: Jun 21 2007, 01:13 PM

[WickedWitchOfThe...]

At last! I've got some time to read this thread properly. Now if I can just keep the kids quiet long enough for me to think....... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Please forgive me if I repeat anybody. I'm going from the first post to last in order. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Tonks shows up and is thoroughly unconcerned over his thievery. Harry chalks it up to her grieving over Sirius, but we know that's not really why Tonks has been upset, so what gives?

Tonks was upset over Lupin not returning the feelings for her and she simply didn't care about Harry's little problem. I know I've been in the same position before a couple of times and to this day it still bothers me and I'll get a little down. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Mundungus has brought this to Aberforth on assignment for the Order.

Then why was Albus's reaction so somber when he heard about Harry and Dung's encounter? He frowned, said he thinks Dung is afraid to see him at the moment, and then promises Harry that Dung will not take anything else. The argument can be made that he could make that promise knowing that Dung already got what he was supposed to get, but why Albus's reaction? Also, for all they knew, anything not stuck with a Permanant Sticking Charm was probably thrown away. In fact, the locket was in a rubbish sack and we didn't see it in Kreacher's nest. (Uh-Oh! Now I've really got to get reading and seeing things again.) They did know some things were stolen and hidden by Kreacher, but they did not know what those items were unless they took a peek at Kreacher's nest, told Albus what was hidden there, and Albus said to take it. That scenario doesn't seem likely considering that Albus thinks House-Elves should be treated with a certain amount of respect and suggesting stealing just doesn't sound like him at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

You ask "Why did he tell Harry that the locket was still out there?" My answer is one I've given before... Albus knows that Voldemort can eavesdrop on Harry's mind without Harry knowing, because Snape told him so. (This is also why Snape tried to give that last bit of advice during the Flight of the Prince chapter, in my opinion) So Albus must lie to Harry, so that Voldemort can continue to feel that the locket is safely hidden in the cave.

If he wanted V to still believe the locket was in the cave, then why take Harry with him? I know it's to give Harry experience, but if it was that vital that V think it's in the cave, then why take Harry?

I'm thinking that V knew the Horcrux in the cave was destroyed and that's why he killed Regulus. And with V, why not leave a fake and the booby traps there? Somebody will go through misery. Not something I think V would complain about, lol. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes Dumbledore is dead... but is it Albus or Aberforth? Was it a polyjuice potion? A switching spell (something we've heard a lot about but never had a description of the spell or the limitations, not to mention a form of transfiguration which was Albus's subject)?

I think this is a very good possibility that I have pondered before. She never said specifically whether it was Albus or Aberforth, so she very well may have been meaning Aberforth. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

When asked about it later she can simply respond: "I couldn't evade the question without revealing too much, so my only option was to lie in order to protect the story's final twists... It wasn't an easy choice, but it was the right one."

Technically, she wouldn't have lied. She would have said the exact truth, it'd be the people that misunderstood her is all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

baty... you will win your bet.

We'll see! I wouldn't mind if she won right now, I'm in a playful mood. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Hang on, I put up too many quotes. I've gotta make another post for the rest.....

[WickedWitchOfThe...]

Continued....

Why would JK give the biggest twist to her story away.

She wouldn't! No way! Which I think helps to prove that DD is dead. If she had continued to say nothing about it, the speculation would've contiued until DH was released and read. But saying something about it means that she is not giving anything away that hasn't already been let out into the open. Personally, I really don't think she's lying. Do you remember the offense she seemed to take when Emerson misspoke and basically said she had lied before? Yes, it was before her comments about DD, but I don't think an honorable person can suddenly adapt a lying attitude in a year's time.

I believe that Nicolas and Albus are the same person. There's more to it, but I'll leave it there for now...

I think there is a slight possibility of this being the case, but then again, what did he do? Change his name every 200 years or so? Reinvent himself? I mean, if someone had achieved immortality, wouldn't their picture be around? Wouldn't people know what he looks like? How would he be able to take on another persona with so much ease? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just trying to figure it out.

Nitwit, Blubber, Oddment, Tweak... Those are the few (seemingly random) words DD used at the Welcome feast in... I think it was Prisoner of Azkaban.

T'was SS, my Dear! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But again, it's all speculation, and theories so have at it, and by God Perseus you and I are going to be proven correct, and there is going to be a running down one's driveway and ...... BABY IT AIN'T GOING TO BE ME!!!

Again, we'll see. Either way, I know pictures will be taken though. LOL! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No matter what... If I am right... driveway streaking will ensue...

HANG ON A SECOND!! Don't be taking her side! Driveway streaking will ensue whether you're right or wrong. I'm not the only one in on the bet. If you're wrong she will be doing it just as much as I will if you're right. I've already had her teasing me about a body double, so don't you go taking her side! It's whether you're wrong or right, driveway streaking will ensue. Not only if you're right! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Unless he was born on February 29th...

ROFL!!! That was GOOD! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[You-Know-Poo]

Indeed baty... I know it's all just theory and conjecture, but because I feel like I may have finally deciphered JKR's trail of evidence, I wonder whether I would want to know, as someone who has only read the book a couple times... Perspective is always our own and so it's hard to truly look at it from outside ourselves.

No matter what... If I am right... driveway streaking will ensue...

But if I'm wrong (kinda hope I am, just so I haven't spoiled my OWN surprise) so be it. If I'm right, at least I've finally figured out why she gave DD such a long name... I mean c'mon! Brian????? Sheesh! (I suppose it could be a weird Monty Python tribute though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

Ok... I just realized that there's a flaw that someone will probably point out. JKR did state that Dumbledore's age was about 150, considerably younger than my theory would allow... Unless he was born on February 29th...

Wow I'm really grasping at straws here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There's a problem here. Even if he was born on Feburary 29th, and lived to be 150, he would have only been 600 years old.
Nicholas Flamel in Book 1, was I don't think so

[Perseus_Evans]

WWW...

Like all my theories, the loose threads make them fairly easy to unravel. I can count on the keenness of your mind to see them and pull, so to speak, which keeps me honest... And I will go so far as to pull a few threads myself....

Your point that JKR could have simply left the question open-ended as to whether DD was dead does make sense. The fact that she said something definitive does suggest that she wanted to put it to rest. Unless... it's Aberforth, in which case her choice to say "Dumbledore is dead" is a misdirection, but not a lie...

On the Flamel theory... I will note two things: The Chocolate Frog cards in the video games show birth years for virtually every other wizard except DD. Strange, to be sure, since there's not a rational reason to hold back that piece of information unless it's relevant to the plot.

The other contradictory factor is Aberforth. He would either have to have taken the Elixir of life as well and be about the same extended age for my theory to hold water, which seems pretty unlikely overall. Otherwise, Harry's recognition of him as "familiar" makes no sense... though he could be a descendant.

But I did also think that the idea would have been a periodic change in identity, as a necessity to protect against those who would attempt to steal the stone...

And in the case of Mung "going to ground", I believe in any case, that he was afraid to face Dumbledore, because A) he'd caused Harry to be upset and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) he'd inadvertently shown Voldemort what he was up to, since I believe Voldy can see through Harry's eyes... And the frown was DD trying to figure out the best way to say it to Harry to cover those tracks...