Snape....Good or Bad?????, Spape is still good!!! Options

[mr.peter]

I've thought about Snape's loyalty ever since I started to question it: Chapter One of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince. My father and I discuss plot points and theories almost daily and we come up with some very interesting ideas sometimes.

The name 'Severus' comes from a Roman Emperor named Septimius Severus who restored stability to the Roman Empire after the rein of Commodus, whose murder brought on quite a few civil wars. Of course, there were some downsides to his rein. He brought increasing financial and military burdens to Rome's government. And I quote from an internet page about him: "The bloodiness with which Severus gained and maintained control of the empire tarnished his generally positive reputation." You can easily look him up on Google. I also researched the village of Snape and although nothing caught my eye off the bat, I found that it was very useful for quite awhile and that it was connected to Rome. More about the village of Snape here: http://www.snapevillage.org.uk/indexfr.html if you find anything similar about it and Professor Snape, contact me.

Now, knowing this and what we already know about Snape, it is possible to come up with one or two theories. There is only one that I'm going to embellish upon.

So, the obvious. Voldie will very likely die. We've been expecting it from book one. Because of JKR's recent interview we know that there will be a tad bit more than one death in this book. It will be a heart-breaker for fans, I think. Although it seems that Snape killed Dumbledore with a bit of a passion, I wonder if it wasn't an accident, that Dumbledore knew about Snape's promise to Narcissa? Either way, we must assume that Snape is a good guy. Assume this, and we can bring in the history. Everyone thinks that Snape is evil, of course, which is why he fled. He isn't popular enough to get any sort of help from the other Order members, and when Harry gave his account on what he saw, it would be like walking into Azkaban with a smile on your face. But what better way to become Voldie's favorite person in the world? He would learn everything, or close to everything when it came to Lord Voldemort's plans. Can anyone spell out secretive sabotage? Then, when Voldemort is dead, who better to pop up than Snape? I've noticed that Dumbledore always has two people with him at Hogwarts if he's off to investigate, or if he's going to discuss something: Snape and McGonagall. Bad judge of character? Blinded by his kindness? Or, a brilliant man who knows what is going through everyone's mind? No body knows. I just find it hard to believe that Dumbledore trusted Snape and all for nothing. So, the war's over, Voldemort is dead... Who doesn't care about lost lives? Snape. He never cared about anyone (that we know of), but he cares about the Wizarding Community enough to help out. As always, I'm not completely sure about anything that I've said, but I believe strongly that Snape is good.

-James who is not Potter

[Potterfreak92]

I think Snape is bad and always has been bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) I don't think Snape and DD planned the murder because I think DD would have wanted to be there to help Harry finish off LV, but I guess we'll just have to wait for Book 7.

[whyzdom]

I think after lots of careful consideration, that Snape and DD had it worked out. I could point out some of the more obvious arguments that people have sited, like Snape/DD argument and such. But there are 2 hidden forshadowing events that I feel are clear indicators of their conspiracy.

#1) In Spinners End when Snape was making his Unbreakable Vow, on the 3rd part of the vow where he promised to fulfill Draco's job if Draco indeed failed, Snape's hand almost pulled out of the vow.( The little twitch his hand made at the pronouncement of the 3rd part of the vow). He really didn't want to go that route. He must have known that this was indeed going to come along at some point.

Remember that Snape is extremely proficient at both Occlumency and Legilmency. Therefore, he had to know what it was about. He knew that Narcissa would be along to ask for his assistance, and I would even wager enough to know that he knew enough to understand that her intentions were to get him to make an unbreakable vow. Snape and DD must have colluded, and decided it was the best course of action.

#2) The more subtle hint that this was a setup is the fact that DD told Harry to carry his invisibility cloak with him wherever he went. Including at Hogwarts! So if ya think that DD wasn't aware of something getting ready to go down at that school, then why even mention the cloak. You could say that he was wanting him to be more careful at all times, but at the school? A place protected by strong magic?

It just smacks of a plan, preconceived, that both Snape (who didn't want to do it) and DD had to ensure that Snape was left in a spot of unquestionable loyalty to Voldy.


As much as I hate Snape, I just can't see it any other way.

[jcognition]

I think that you guys are all ignoring the fact that Snape thinks Harry is a dreadful wizard. With Dumbledore ordering Severus to kill him, it crosses my mind that Snape thinks that killing Dumbledore (the only one powerful enough to stop Voldy) is not the best thing to do. I mean, Snape must have guessed that the prophecy said either Harry or Voldy were going to kill each other (he may have felt that voldy had a huge advantage with DD gone). Would Snape stay good if he knew he would no longer be under the protection of DD? Slytherins are notorious for saving their own skin in a tight situation (so he would kill DD to save his skin, and then start working for Voldy anyways).
Over the series of books, it has been deeply engraved in Harry's mind that Snape is evil (which may have been DD's and severus's doing because Harry is such a lamentable Occlumens already without adding the scar link in). Snape and DD would need to be sure that Harry doubted Snape's loyalty enough so that Voldy didnt get dreams from Harry about Snape being in the Order, with the ironclad reason why he was on their side, not voldemort's. This build up of hatred in Harry towards Snape may also be a factor for Snape to switch loyalty. He had no prob doing the act while DD was around. But after DD was dead, who was going to convince Harry that he was good? (harry would probably try to kill him at the first instance of his presence).

Please spell out ALL your words! Thanks...

[msricenbeans]

sorry...picked wrong quote...i would like to respond to this...

"I think that you guys are all ignoring the fact that Snape thinks Harry is a dreadful wizard. With Dumbledore ordering Severus to kill him, it crosses my mind that Snape thinks that killing Dumbledore (the only one powerful enough to stop Voldy) is not the best thing to do. I mean, Snape must have guessed that the prophecy said either Harry or Voldy were going to kill each other (he may have felt that voldy had a huge advantage with DD gone). Would Snape stay good if he knew he would no longer be under the protection of DD? Slytherins are notorious for saving their own skin in a tight situation (so he would kill DD to save his skin, and then start working for Voldy anyways).
Over the series of books, it has been deeply engraved in Harry's mind that Snape is evil (which may have been DD's and severus's doing because Harry is such a lamentable Occlumens already without adding the scar link in). Snape and DD would need to be sure that Harry doubted Snape's loyalty enough so that Voldy didnt get dreams from Harry about Snape being in the Order, with the ironclad reason why he was on their side, not voldemort's. This build up of hatred in Harry towards Snape may also be a factor for Snape to switch loyalty. He had no prob doing the act while DD was around. But after DD was dead, who was going to convince Harry that he was good? (harry would probably try to kill him at the first instance of his presence)."

i very much agree with you...i also think snape is angry at harry for being the reason dumbledore is dead. i think snape feels that if dumbledore didn't care for harry so much personally, he might not have been so ready to give his life for him. i think he hates that fact that the one who can kill voldemort (for i do believe that although snape is not a nice or even good man, he does wish for the pure evil of voldemort to perish...) is his archnemesis's (sp?) son. he DOES NOT like harry at all, but knows that harry must survive to finish voldemort. let us remember that not only does snape not attack harry when he could've (on the way to the front gates at the end of HBP) but he stops another death eater from continuing to put the cruciatus curse on him.

[Dijares]

I've been thinking about old Snape lately...

I find it very interesting that Snape says that the Dark Lord has told him that no one is to touch Potter. However, in OOTP, once the DEs got the prophecy, they were given permission to kill Potter. So, how is it that the DEs can kill them, but, according to Snape, Harry shouldn't be touched?

You see, if Snape is lying about this (in order to protect Harry), none of the DEs are about to go ask Voldemort if Snape is telling the truth.

Another thing...in HBP, Hagrid says he heard DD and Snape arguing, and that Snape said that he 'doesn't want to do this anymore' or something to that affect.

And, at the beginning of HBP, when Narcissa and Bellatrix visit him, Snape has no idea what 'the plan' was. He was just blowing smoke to get information from them. If he knew what 'the plan' was, he'd have been with Draco when it started up - not in his office by himself.

Always - ALWAYS - Snape has protected Harry. Why? Yes, he's been extraordinarily nasty toward him, but this could just be smoke again.

What if the argument that Snape and DD had was that DD had informed Snape that if Draco was to kill DD (as I'm sure they had figured out what was going to happen - just not when), that Snape was to kill DD, and NOT Draco. If Snape truly was dedicated to DD, then he would refuse to kill him. But DD would be adamant that it happen.

You see, some things just aren't adding up...

Even at the end of HBP, after Snape killed DD, the ONLY reason that Snape did anything to Harry was because Harry goaded him into it. Harry wouldn't shut up. Even at the end, Snape didn't truly hurt him. He even protected him when the DE did crucio on Harry.

Yes, yes, yes, he's been very nasty, making Harry's life miserable, but I think that Snape is a great illusionist/actor/liar. But, truly, the things he's done have been in Harry's interest, if some of what I said above makes sense.

Snape would have to kill DD, so that Draco would not be penalized for doing it. Snape made the oath - it had to be done, and DD knew it. Snape is the ONLY person who has said that Harry had to stay alive for LV - no one else. And no one is about to go ask LV if what Snape is saying is true or not.

Let me know what you think.

[baty4potter]

So Dij, does this mean you trust Snape? If so..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yikes.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yuck.gif) I think that gave you my opinion. LOL

So do I trust Snape? Nope, not one bit. Do I think he has protected Harry? Yes he has. I think Snape is out for what is best for Snape. No way could Malfoy had killed Dumbledore, and Snape would not have killed Malfoy. So by Snape killing Dumbledore, even though Dumbledore probably bagged him to do so, it, to me, doesn't prove that Snape is good. All it proves, to me, is that Snape was protecting his own interest, and that is his back side. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laughing.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I think he's a dead man walking, no matter which side he's on.

[Hermione@13]

I agree! Snape is pure evil! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/darkside.gif) He's a selfish, twisted liar. When he seems to be doing something good it's because there's something in it for himself!

[Dijares]

It's just a few things I've been thinking on/have observed. I still don't think I've an opinion yet. I don't think I'll have one til I read HPDH. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/closedeyes.gif)

[WickedWitchOfThe...]

All it proves, to me, is that Snape was protecting his own interest, and that is his back side.

He's always been protecting his backside. Don't we all? LOL! But in all seriousness, he's done things for good, he's done things for bad. The last thing he did may have been for good, but it was truly bad. His character is quite complex, but that makes trying to figure him out all that much more fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I don't think I'll have one til I read HPDH.

What's wrong, Dij? Trying to avoid being sucked into a bet? LOL! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[baty4potter]

He's always been protecting his backside. Don't we all? LOL! But in all seriousness, he's done things for good, he's done things for bad. The last thing he did may have been for good, but it was truly bad. His character is quite complex, but that makes trying to figure him out all that much more fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
What's wrong, Dij? Trying to avoid being sucked into a bet? LOL! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I totally agree that he has done things for good, and that his killing Dumbledore what probably what Dumbledore wanted. But that said, covering his backside doesn't mean he can switch sides when it's in his best interest, and that is what I think Snape does. You can cover your backside, and still stay on the good side. Snape switch hits for both sides, and quite frankly if he was on my team and went to bat for the other side I'd kick his rear off my side; which I think the Order will do. :~)

As for your response to Dij..... ROFLMRO!!!!

No fair Dij, you have to stick up for your rights no matter if you lose the bet or not. NeenerNeener~~~

Oh I luvvvvv this conversation! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Hermione@13]

I think we all agree that Snape is a selfish, lying, coniving little git! Wow! I used English slang! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laughing.gif)

Anyway, I still believe that Snape is evil no matter what!(unless Jo says he isn't, of course)

[the_prisoner_of_...]

So Dij, does this mean you trust Snape? If so..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yikes.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yuck.gif) I think that gave you my opinion. LOL

So do I trust Snape? Nope, not one bit. Do I think he has protected Harry? Yes he has. I think Snape is out for what is best for Snape. No way could Malfoy had killed Dumbledore, and Snape would not have killed Malfoy. So by Snape killing Dumbledore, even though Dumbledore probably bagged him to do so, it, to me, doesn't prove that Snape is good. All it proves, to me, is that Snape was protecting his own interest, and that is his back side. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laughing.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I think he's a dead man walking, no matter which side he's on.

Aw Baty, you and me have pretty much identical opinions on Snape. Snape wants what's best for Snape. He's a coward and he's looking out for himself. He's loyalty is....wavering at best. I mean we know he ditched Voldy when he was getting weak, so whats to say he wouldn't go crawling back when Voldy started getting strong again.

And yes, Snape is pretty much screwed either way. Voldy will kill him, the DE's will kill him or he will die at the hands of the order.....or be given a nice little cell in Azkaban. But hey, I'm not picky.

What he's done to Lilly and James, to Sirius, to Neville (which by the way, you can justify his treatment of Sirius and James, but Neville? Neville never did anything to Snape!), to Harry and even to Dumbledore. No I'm proud to say that even if we did find out in book 7 that Snape was acting for Dumbledore, I still would want him dead.

But hey, to each his orher own (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[baty4potter]

Stands up and Applauds the_prisoner_of_azkaban, I couldn't have said it better. Don't you just love to hate Snape? Such a hateable character, and Rickman makes it even better!!

Yes, I don't care who deals with Snape, though I'd like to see Hagrid put Snape in his hands and crush him to death.

You are very correct when it comes to Neville though. Snape is a teacher, and though you might favor your own house a bit, his treatment of Gryffindor students, and particularly certain ones was despicable. A toe hanging by Neville would be in order. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laughing.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Violence on campus!!

[Hermione@13]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/yikes.gif) You sound like Filch, Baty! Hmmm...somehow I can't imagine Neville doing that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Don't you just love to hate Snape?

Actually, it's not one of those "grrrrr, i hate this character" things. You don't get that with Harry Potter. Even though I think that Snape is evil, I don't get that same angry feeling as in the dramas on television! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laughing.gif)

[the_prisoner_of_...]

A little O.T. I'd love to see Neville really stand up to Snape. But I wouldn't want Neville to kill him I know that, I don't want Neville to be responsible for something like that.

[Dijares]

What's wrong, Dij? Trying to avoid being sucked into a bet? LOL! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Actually, I'm a researcher by nature, so I guess I'm still trying to analyze everything. I must admit I'm leaning a bit toward the 'for some reason he's done all of this for a good reason', but if he were put to trial, he'd swing.

[WickedWitchOfThe...]

But that said, covering his backside doesn't mean he can switch sides when it's in his best interest, and that is what I think Snape does.

If you're smart enough you can, and you can get away with it too. Look at how long Snape did it successfully before the incident with DD. He may be a horrible person, but he's definitely a smart one!

if he was on my team and went to bat for the other side I'd kick his rear off my side; which I think the Order will do.

Oh yes. I have no doubt that the Order is through with him now.

Neville (which by the way, you can justify his treatment of Sirius and James, but Neville? Neville never did anything to Snape!)

I don't know how anybody could honestly justify his treatment of Neville. The way he treated that poor boy was just WRONG!

You don't get that with Harry Potter.

LOL! Speak for yourself, lol. I don't like V, I don't like Snape, but Umbridge I HATE! Never have I felt such contempt for any character in a book. Sure, other books have made me feel emotions, but the loathing I have for Umbridge is something I don't think will ever be rivaled.

I'm leaning a bit toward the 'for some reason he's done all of this for a good reason', but if he were put to trial, he'd swing.

You and I are in the same boat then. I do believe his actions were for the greater good, but he'd take a trip to the ol' Death Chamber if he was caught.

[Hermione@13]

OT, oh yeah, Umbridge! I forgot about her! (lucky me, lol)

Anyway,...doesn't Snape seem a bit like V. He did a bad thing(to kill DD), but it was great. I think this truly shows that he's more powerful than some people might think.(just because i said powerful ddoesn't mean i'm overlooking his evil side)

[KatScratch]

I've been thinking about this over and over since I got introduced to this character when I first started reading the books. Definately a very interesting character and one of my favorites because everything is not so black and white with Severus Snape. Funny too how he is discussed far more than any other character I've found online. Other than Harry. I think one momment, yeah he's not to be trusted, and then in the next chapter of a book I'm thinking well may be not. I really can't decide. I find the onscreen Snape is much more of a mystery when it comes to his actions more than book-snape. Possibly due to lack of scenes etc. And he seems more in control and dosen't fly off the edge than book-snape. i.e: like in POA, in the book when confronting Black he just lets loose and looses his composure and turns into this raving madman straight through until he leaves the hospital wing, where as in the scene in the movie when confronting Black, he's more in control of himself and you can't tell if he wanted to kill Black for his personal gain, or if he was actually trying to save his students lives. Onscreen-Snape is more gray since through the onscreen portrail he makes you wonder what's going through his mind and what his motives are really as he's far more reserved.


As much as I like the idea of "Bad Snape" who will show up in Death Eater glory preforming some twisted ceremony on Harry or others like in some cheesy horror flick satanic follower, I think in the end he's going to be revealed as someone who was on the right side of the law the whole time. Just because he's very shady and does some trifeling things and it wouldn't be what the readers would expect. Or possibly JK wouldn't even reveal it at all LOL wouldn't that tick off us readers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Yet, since he is so well developed in JK's mind and seems to put so much into this character, he is going to have a big part to play in the end be it on one side or the other. She's got something up her sleave when it comes to this character.

With the murder of Dumbledore, I thought, perhaps he was providing a mercy killing and not have the man suffer but then reading on that he had hatred in his eyes, I was totally brought back to bad snape...yet perhaps it was hatred for having to do the deed or was it hatred for the head master? It was hard for me to deside what was going through his mind. Ugh! Very frustrating.

Then again I also agree with what someone else wrote. That he probably is on the side which best suites the situation and what he feels will benifit him. He's not bad or good, just a jerk (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) He is a Slytherin after all. They will succeed doing whatever is necessary to make sure they win or gain personal glory. And him being the head of the house he possibly lives for doing such. Since I doubt he is the type (though some i've been reading would like to see snape as a sensitive soul under his hard exterior who cries in the darkness alone) personally, though I love the character just as much as anyone, but I find him arrogant and self-righteous and I would hate to see this cool character turn out to be some romantic/fluffy sugary man in the end. I like the idea that Severus does what Severus wants and screw whoever says otherwise to him. Either way he's a very complex character. I love him.

Actually he sort of reminds me of Grima Wormtongue being a huge LOTR fan. He, like Grima, was not fully good or bad, they just went with what they figured was going to give them personal gain in the end. Though if that is the case, Severus should get in touch of Grima haha because for other LOTR fans, we all know what happens to guys who back stab their Leaders for personal power (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Eh, I rambled on long enough. So this Professor Snape fan is still undesided about his actions in short.