Why Snape didn't get the DADA job, A new theory Options

[Perseus_Evans]

Here's another little thing that bugged me.

If DD trusted Snape at the level that the ending suggests, why not let him have the Defense against the dark arts job much earlier? I had long thought this to be a problem with the overall story, in that it always seemed to suggest that DD had some lingering doubts.

We've heard that the job was cursed, and at points Snape has suggested that DD wouldn't give it to him because of a fear that he would return to his old ways, i.e. have a relapse. If that were true, I somehow wouldn't think that DD would allow Snape to teach any subject.

So for a while, I thought it was a somewhat useless plot point to keep us (Harry) guessing about Snape.

But now I think I understand a little better, having just reread the "Lord Voldemort's Request" chapter in HBP:

It was yet again about maintaining cover for Snape. DD knew that by denying Snape's desire to achieve the role, he was in some way making him more trustworthy to Voldy. Voldy would see Snape more as an ally, having gone through a similar experience with DD denying him the job. It would also solidify the sense that DD didn't trust Snape in Voldy's mind, because, like me, Voldy would assume that there must still be doubt in DD's mind about his loyalties.

Don't know if that makes sense, but I found it interesting.

[Dijares]

I do agree that, perhaps, it was another cover, but also it was DD protecting Snape. They both knew the position was cursed by Voldemort - if DD couldn't have it, then no one could. Therefore, if Snape should take that position, it would have been his last position there; which is what happened in Deathly Hallows once Snape got the position.

[baty4potter]

Here's another little thing that bugged me.

If DD trusted Snape at the level that the ending suggests, why not let him have the Defense against the dark arts job much earlier? I had long thought this to be a problem with the overall story, in that it always seemed to suggest that DD had some lingering doubts.

We've heard that the job was cursed, and at points Snape has suggested that DD wouldn't give it to him because of a fear that he would return to his old ways, i.e. have a relapse. If that were true, I somehow wouldn't think that DD would allow Snape to teach any subject.

So for a while, I thought it was a somewhat useless plot point to keep us (Harry) guessing about Snape.

But now I think I understand a little better, having just reread the "Lord Voldemort's Request" chapter in HBP:

It was yet again about maintaining cover for Snape. DD knew that by denying Snape's desire to achieve the role, he was in some way making him more trustworthy to Voldy. Voldy would see Snape more as an ally, having gone through a similar experience with DD denying him the job. It would also solidify the sense that DD didn't trust Snape in Voldy's mind, because, like me, Voldy would assume that there must still be doubt in DD's mind about his loyalties.

Don't know if that makes sense, but I found it interesting.

I totally agree with you. I've had to go back and rethink my thoughts on Snape a lot. Though I still don't like him, and feel he was out for himself, he did have this redeeming quality that probably only Dumbledore knew about and trusted in him, and the only way to protect him was to deny him something he (Snape) really wanted.

In my minds eye even Snape didn't know the extent of how much Dumbledore trusted him. And also I still feel that in the back of Dumbledore's mind was a little doubt. See to me Snape, for the most part, though trusted by Dumbledore, had a very dark side, and that showed with his childish ways in which he treated not only Harry but others like Neville and Hermione. He never grew out of his hatred back when he was a kid; he was still out for revenge.

Don't you just love to hate Snape? I do, because he is one of my favorite characters!

[Fizzing_Whizzbee]

I'm not sure really how to explain this (still suffering from holiday grogginess) so please bare with me.

I feel there are some signifigant similarities between Snape and Dumbledore.

While Dumbledore is certainly far superior in power/natural talent/knowledge in magic, Snape is no slouch himself. Truth betold, I'd place Snape over the other heads of houses in terms of knowledge and ability any day if the week.

Both were highly ambitous for power at some point in their lives. Dumbledore sought it in his youth seeking the Hallows while Snape also looked for power (or at least recognition for his talents) by becomming a Death Eater in his youth and constantly seeking the DADA post later in life. (In my opinion, while the other major classes are important, I think DADA might have been at once the premier position to have before being cursed).

Both are highly secretive about their personal lives. Whether it is Snape and his fondness for Lily or being a double-agent, or it is Dumbledore for hiding what happened to his sister.

I think Dumbledore saw these similarities and wanted to keep Snape from a position of power for more than just added cover for Snape.

We know that Dumbledore refused positions at the Ministy because he feared how he might use such power and authority. This applies similarly to why Snape was denied DADA for so long. It was a position of power and while I don't think Snape would have relapsed per se, the power and authority the position gave might cause Snape to lose himself in one form or another. Dumbledore wanted to make darn sure Snape was ready for the position.

Truth betold, I am willnig to bet that had Dumbledore not caught the curse the did him in (in addition to the killing curse), Snape's appointment would have been held off until Harry's final year. But, due to circumstances things had to be moved up a year.

I hope some of that makes sense. Its late, its been a long and stressful holiday season and I'm definately out of practice in posting.

This post has been edited by Fizzing_Whizzbee: Jan 3 2008, 12:28 AM

[Dijares]

Hi Fizzing_Whizzbee

It's great to see you here! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The holidays are nearly over (thank Goodness- kids back to school soon!)

I have to agree with a lot of what you said. I hadn't really thought of Snape in the DADA position as a power thing. That's very interesting.

[PigmyPuff]

I don’t think that it was a power thing.

I think that Snape did not get the job simply because it was cursed.

While I acknowledge that there were certain similarities between Snape and Dumbledore and that they both have dark side to them, or secret if you will, I simply think that it is a mere coincidence rather than a reason to keep Snape from the DADA post.

As Sirius Black said in OotP, “We all have dark and light inside us. It the side we choose to act on that makes us who we are.” So you see, my opinion is that the dark side of Dumbledore and Snape was not perhaps a pivotal plot turning point, but simply just a characteristic of any powerful wizard.

It is my opinion that Snape did not get the DADA post because it was cursed. Dumbledore needed to keep him at Hogwarts and he knew that if he gave him that job, he would only be there for a year, no matter what year it was.

Once Dumbledore arranged for Snape to kill him, there was no reason to withhold the job from him. He knew that after Snape killed him, he would have to leave Hogwarts and the curse would be broken. They are simply not in a business of keeping teachers that kill headmasters. =P Not to mention that Dumbledore used the rumors about Snape returning to his old ways upon holding that job to his advantage to strengthen Snape’s position among the Death Eaters. Brilliant, I might add. =)

[maxis.m1028]

I think dd always trusted snape. He was in the order and that was the key to trust. if dd had the slightest doubt that snape was a backstaber he wouldnt have given him all the information on harry and himself. so i guess my question is sense dada is the most important subject why didnt dd give snape the job. a simple job wouldnt cause someone to become a death eater. I dont really think the job was cursed. dd of all people would have wanted the students, especially harry to be taught well in that subject. so why didnt snape get the job sooner?

[crmhpfan]

I think that Dumbledore and Snape just had to play their parts - even if it meant denying Snape his desired subject.

In my minds eye even Snape didn't know the extent of how much Dumbledore trusted him. And also I still feel that in the back of Dumbledore's mind was a little doubt. See to me Snape, for the most part, though trusted by Dumbledore, had a very dark side, and that showed with his childish ways in which he treated not only Harry but others like Neville and Hermione. He never grew out of his hatred back when he was a kid; he was still out for revenge.

But that could all be part of the cover - to fool everyone. Snape just wasn't being a double spy when Voldemort regenerated, he had been doing it since Harry had died. And if that meant being cruel to Harry and his friends, then I suppose then Snape would take that on. We mustn't forget that when Snape "went back" to the Death Eaters/Voldemort that night after Voldemort's resurrection, he had to be prepared. And Voldemort wouldn't just judge him on a few months service, he would read his whole life via Legilimency (I know I spelt that wrong) so I think Snape put on the mask of being an arrogant jerk in order to fool Voldemort. But that's just my opinion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

[Kiara]

I really want to say this, though I suppose PigmyPuff said it in some way as well:
I realized while reading this thread that when Dumbledore was speaking to Snape about Voldemort being sure the school would be in his grasp, and Dumbledore knowing that he would die within a year, he felt (possibly before this conversation, that is, before he decided to give the DADA job to Snape) that if the job is cursed, he would only have it for a year, and therfore, [Dumbledore] knowing Voldemort wouldn't make himself headmaster just as surely as he wouldn't make himself Minister of Magic, he somehow realized Snape would become Headmaster of Hogwarts and therefore be able to protect the children as much as he could, like Dumbledore asked him to.
I don't know if any of this makes any sense or if I explained this correctly - It's 3:20 here and I'm exhausted (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Kiara.

[Harry's-Girl]

I think Dumbledore didn't give Snape the Defense Against the Dark Arts job earlier because when he first came to Hogwarts he had just been a Death Eater. And, Dumbledore knew that if Snape got the job right when he got to Hogwatrs he would probably try something. Also, Dumbledore could've known that a time would come when there would need to be a diversion at Hogwarts for something and Snape could let the Death Eaters in, kind of like at the end of the Half-Blood Prince.

This post has been edited by Harry's-Girl: Jun 30 2008, 01:50 AM

[BrandNewHero]

I know this sounds like kind of a lame answer, but maybe it has absolutely nothing to do with curses, trust, or anything too deep. Maybe Dumbledore just didn't feel like giving Snape every desire and wish he had after he turned spy for The Order and Dumbledore. We really don't know what kind of horrors Snape did as a Death Eater, for all we know he murdered, tortured, and hunted muggles, mudbloods, etc etc. I think Dumbledore realized he was giving Snape a pretty sweet offer, a chance to redeem himself, a chance to protect himself, a chance to do some good...I know Snape really wanted the DADA position and maybe Dumbledore just had no intentions of giving in to the former Death Eater's every request.

You have to assume some in the wizarding community knew that Snape was a former Death Eater ( or maybe not, I'm remembering a scene from the Goblet of Fire movie but I can't recall if it was in the book), maybe Dumbledore figured that a lot of parents might not be too stoked about having their kids study DADA whith a Death Eater, even if it was a former one.


Just some thoughts...I agree with the curse theory though also.

[Harry's-Girl]

I know this sounds like kind of a lame answer, but maybe it has absolutely nothing to do with curses, trust, or anything too deep. Maybe Dumbledore just didn't feel like giving Snape every desire and wish he had after he turned spy for The Order and Dumbledore. We really don't know what kind of horrors Snape did as a Death Eater, for all we know he murdered, tortured, and hunted muggles, mudbloods, etc etc. I think Dumbledore realized he was giving Snape a pretty sweet offer, a chance to redeem himself, a chance to protect himself, a chance to do some good...I know Snape really wanted the DADA position and maybe Dumbledore just had no intentions of giving in to the former Death Eater's every request.

You have to assume some in the wizarding community knew that Snape was a former Death Eater ( or maybe not, I'm remembering a scene from the Goblet of Fire movie but I can't recall if it was in the book), maybe Dumbledore figured that a lot of parents might not be too stoked about having their kids study DADA whith a Death Eater, even if it was a former one.
Just some thoughts...I agree with the curse theory though also.

That is somewhat true. If was Dumbledore I would probably not have given him Defense Against the Dark Arts becasue that might make him have some soul power that might reawaken the Death Eater in him.

[breadcrumbz]

Ok, I know the reason why Snape was offered the job.

As we know from Snape's memories, Dumbledores death had been planned, but lets go deeper into it...Dumbledore was talking about when Darco would make his ulitmate move on him...and he said "Near enough a year" or something...anyway, he wanted Snape to actually end his suffering and for Snape to kill him. Now, it was just at the end of the pervious school year when this happened, now if Dumbledore wanted Snape to keep his promise, he'd have to get him out of Hogwarts to do so...sooo, he made Snape have the position at the DADA teacher and in a years time, he would be under the jinx and then would be somehow cast of out Hogwarts ect...weird how that fits.

So this leads to the conclusion that Dumbledore waited until the right time to give Snape the job.

Anyway, I think Snape wasn't given the job in DH because either :

1. The jinx wouldn't let him be able too be in the post again
2. He needed to try and protect Hogwarts from the Carrows

Meh (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[WitBeyondMeasure]

There was most definitely a curse on the position of DADA, Dumbledore told Harry this after showing him the memory of Voldemort asking for the position, by saying that no DADA professor has lasted longer than a year since that day. So I think we can safely say that since it was vital Snape remain at Hogwarts, giving him the job would have caused him to have to leave- due to said curse. And until this was necessary, Dumbledore obviously needed to keep Snape around, not only for Harry's protection, but to fool Voldemort into thinking that Snape is his Death Eater, watching Dumbledore's every move and reporting it back. I think Dumbledore knew all along that a time would come when Voldemort would return and every means necessary to act againt that must be used.

I also do not think that Dumbledore would deny Snape the job just because he ''felt like it'' or for revengeful reasons. We obviously know the DD greatly believes in second chances and if he believes someone to be trustworthy, there are no limits or punishments without great reasons behind it.

[Hollie]

giving snape the DADA job could also be a test to see if snape can handle being a headmaster....assuming dumbledore has put 2 + 2 together and knows that snape will most likely become headmaster when he dies