Snape, **SPOILERS??** Options

[potionsmaster]

I agree with PM (not meaning myself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) )--there is a lot of ambiguity in the words describing Snape's actions and intentions. I'm sure some bias plays a part, since I want to believe in his ultimate remorse, however, there are several critical points where we are left to interpretations by other characters in the book, which are not completely representative based on the wording involved. For example:

1. In Chapter 19, Hagrid describes an overheard conversation between Snape and Dumbledore, "Well--I jus' heard Snape sayin; Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he--Snape--didn' wan' ter do it anymore--...An' then he said summat abou' Snape makin' investigastions in his House, in Slytherin."

We are left to think (based on Harry's point of view) that DD may be losing trust in Snape and does not feel Snape is doing enough to investigate Malfoy. However, we know this last part to be false because, in Chapter 27, DD reveals he knew about Malfoy's plan to kill him the whole time. Of course the first part is left to speculation: Is Snape referring to being a spy for the Order (which I don't believe), is he referring to not wanting to go through with the unbreakable bond he made w/ Narcissa? (which I don't really believe either, because he wouldn't have a choice, and I don't think he would whine about something he couldn't change) and he seems to suggest that he's always known on some level he would one day have to kill DD. I don't have a very good explanation for that part.

2. In Chapter 2, when Bellatrix is performing the 3rd part of the unbreakable vow, Snape's hand "twitche[s]" when Narcissa begins, "And, should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco will fail......will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?"

3. And in Chapter 15, Snape is described as looking "both angry and...was it possible?...a little afraid?" when Malfoy is caught at Slughorn's Christmas Party.

Snape is not a straight-forward character, (which is why I find him so interesting), but I think there are several subtle hints that suggest Snape may not be a true follower of V.

I do not believe that Snape is "innocent"; as Dumbledore says, "killing is not nearly as easy as the innocent believe," and regardless of Snape's intentions or orders, he ultimately must kill. I just don't think that the act necessarily makes him evil, if he was truly doing it under DD's wishes, or to save Malfoy from performing an act that would change him forever.

I suppose that I'm trying to see things through the eyes of Snape--he's a former death eater who's master has returned and who will kill him if he suspects any betrayal. He's seen the evil that V is capable of, and at one point even suggests that he knows V best, which may reflect that Snape does not hold much faith in the Order or the Ministry to stop V, and explain why he feels he needs to maintain his facade and maybe even sacrifice his soul by doing unfathomable things, biding his time until the right moment presents itself, and he can definitively bring V down. Although, WE (the readers) all know (or strongly suspect anyway) that it is Harry, who ultimately must defeat V.

[baty4potter]

Since Dumbledore's death I've given Snape a lot of thought. I've ridden on the fence about him for some time now. When he killed Dumbledore there was revulsion and hatred etched on his face. The subject has been brought up many times, but was it for the fact of his actual hatred for Dumbledore, was it that he had to mean it in order to kill Dumbledore, hence the act, or.... Was it because he actually had to do what was requested of him buy Narcissa, and the look was for Draco who was not able to finish his task?

I don't think it was because he needed to feel the hatred to be able to kill Dumbledore, he's too powerful to have to put on an act. So I'm going to pick that it was because he had to do what he had made the vow for, and finish Draco's job; this put him in a bad way with the Order, no matter which side of the fence he is on.

[harrypotteraddic...]

Wow -- I LOVE your theory! I just joined the board so I could read some other takes on the book (which I just finished) and this one makes the most sense to me, among the 'Snape is good' musings. I had forgotten about the hand, and it really seemed to have been a big issue in many scenes. It did make it 'look' like Dumbledore might be dying. And I think it's interesting that in the scene in the Cave, we have Dumbledore screaming "KILL ME!" during his delirium. I don't know what that was about, but it might have been more than just crazy talk.

Also, it just ocurred to me that the scene where Harry is shocked when Dumbledore apparantly pleads for his life "Severus -- Severus, please" that he might ACTUALLY be begging Snape to wrap up his life instead, knowing he is going to die anyway, and why blow-off a good undercover agent to have a few weeks/months of extended life?

Okay, I'm convinced. Snape is still with the Order! But who is he reporting to now that everyone thinks he's reverted to type?

i am still not convinced that snape is on the good side.
i mean he could have stalled his death i mean malfoy definetely couldnt kill DD, and DD was doing a great progress in trying t get malfoy to the good side

but there is one idea that was discussed previously in a different topic which was that there is difference in the HPB editions (british and american) in which the american one dumbeldore while trying to cnvince malfoy to come to the good side he says that they can hide malfoy and make it seem like he died they can even hide his mother and his fathe ronce he got out of azkaban
this was not mentioned in the british edition.
and this started a theory that DD was not dead but then came the shocking statement form jk that nobody is coming back form the death.
so they could have faked his death or is it just a mistake in typing?
on the other hand snape has that look of disgust on his face not because he didnt like what he was doing (killing DD) but because he loathed DD

[baty4potter]

i am still not convinced that snape is on the good side.
i mean he could have stalled his death i mean malfoy definetely couldnt kill DD, and DD was doing a great progress in trying t get malfoy to the good side

but there is one idea that was discussed previously in a different topic which was that there is difference in the HPB editions (british and american) in which the american one dumbeldore while trying to cnvince malfoy to come to the good side he says that they can hide malfoy and make it seem like he died they can even hide his mother and his fathe ronce he got out of azkaban
this was not mentioned in the british edition.
and this started a theory that DD was not dead but then came the shocking statement form jk that nobody is coming back form the death.
so they could have faked his death or is it just a mistake in typing?
on the other hand snape has that look of disgust on his face not because he didnt like what he was doing (killing DD) but because he loathed DD

I'm not really quite sure what you actually said except for the last part about Snape. I feel that the look was for Draco. Snape had to do his dirty work for him, since Draco is the big talking man that he is, he wasn't able to finish the job, and that disgusted Snape. I could be all wet about this though. Just my opinion on the subject.

If you are asking if they could have faked Dumbledore's death, yes it was possible, BUT..... JK said he was dead, and I will take her at her word. I'd hope she wouldn't lie to us. Well, actually on this one I wish she was lying. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laughing.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[iareaj]

Since Dumbledore's death I've given Snape a lot of thought. I've ridden on the fence about him for some time now. When he killed Dumbledore there was revulsion and hatred etched on his face. The subject has been brought up many times, but was it for the fact of his actual hatred for Dumbledore, was it that he had to mean it in order to kill Dumbledore, hence the act, or.... Was it because he actually had to do what was requested of him buy Narcissa, and the look was for Draco who was not able to finish his task?

I don't think it was because he needed to feel the hatred to be able to kill Dumbledore, he's too powerful to have to put on an act. So I'm going to pick that it was because he had to do what he had made the vow for, and finish Draco's job; this put him in a bad way with the Order, no matter which side of the fence he is on.

I have an idea. just thought of this last week. The hatred is not for draco. Because i think he didn't want draco to succeed, (yes i'm one of those who believe snape to be innocent) He would have died, but i think that DD made him make that vow, or made him promise that he won't let draco kill him, but he would do it instead. well, you all know that thoerie about DD & snape plan.
and what does all this have to do with snape revulsion?
had he been killing DD by his own will, he would have been happy. He's an occlumens, a very good one. Why did he show his feelings? because he was under a lot of pressure, he couldn't hide his feelings at that moment. so he was showing true feelings, not an act. and we're back to this point: if he was fulfiling Voldemort's wishes, he would have been happy. But he's not, he shows revulsion at what he's doing.

[baty4potter]

It's going to be Interesting how this plays out iareaj, especially for me since I always thought Snape to be the traitor, then when he killed Dumbledore, my first instinct was that he really wasn't bad. So I switched from Snape being a traitor to Snape being on the Good side. Now after much thought I'm back to traitor again. lol

I'm going to stand my ground until I finish HBP again, then cast my final vote. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Oh, and I'm still sticking with the revolution is for Draco. I know, I'm a hard sell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Oh, one more thing.... You know if they kill off one of my kids I'll never find out. Shame isn't it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/crying.gif)

[Hermione@13]

I think that Snape is just plain evil! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/darkside.gif) He commited a crime and should be punished for it. I think that he is very strong. possibly, stronger than DD and V! He's proved his strength and keeps his promises, so if he made a promise to protect Draco then I think he'll do it and this goes for being a DE, also.