Harry and Snape, What's the big secret? Options

[Perseus_Evans]

I came up with an idea shortly after completing HBP, but I've since refined it and fleshed it out a bit more...

Three major things that I've concluded:

1. Snape, upon finding out that James and Lily had been killed, feels remorseful and goes to DD for forgiveness. Snape says he will do anything to regain DD's trust. DD asks for the Unbreakable Vow... "Will you do everything in your power to protect Harry Potter from death, sacrificing everything if necessary?" "I will." For this reason, I think DD trusted Snape, beyond the norm, because he was bound, and that he only told Harry the "your-dad-saved-snape's-life" story to prevent him from blowing Snape's cover.

When Harry comes to school, Snape is conflicted about having to protect the child of his school-days enemy, James, and does nothing to hide his disdain for the boy, since it's not part of the vow. In fact, he comes to resent the vow so much that he goes out of his way to knock the kid down a peg, since he seems so much like his father, and tormenting the boy doesn't conflict with the vow.

2. Snape is a natural Legimens and can read minds very easily. We already know this to some extent, but our information suggests that he can't read Harry's mind very well. I think that info is wrong. I believe that Snape can read Harry just fine and uses a non-verbal Legimancy spell, each time he let's his gaze linger on Harry. His ability to sense Harry's distrust of him, increases his own dislike of the boy, especially since the boy doesn't appreciate the sacrifices that have been made to keep him alive. (It may also have to do with Snape's affection for Lily, but that isn't 100% necessary).

We also saw evidence of this at the end of HBP when Snape is blocking every spell, and telling Harry he must close his mind. It also supports the Vow theory in that he didn't retaliate and prevented other DEs from attacking Harry (yes, because Voldy wants him, but what a great excuse...)

3. After I'd decided that the above two things were true, something was still bothering me. I couldn't figure out why Harry distrusted Snape so much. I couldn't resolve that his instant dislike of Snape was purely due to feeling the scar itch after the sorting in PS/SS.

Then it hit me. One of the powers that Voldy passed on to Harry, was an innate Legimancy ability. Because of this, Harry does many things that without such a power he might not have done. He chose friends who are sincere and loyal (Ron's total lack of guile was one of the first qualities he displayed, while Draco's conniving way was obvious to him from the start). In the end, he's friends only with people who have no agenda.

He also instantly distrusts Snape, and I believe this is because he couldn't get a read on him. Snape's use of Occlumency is also well-honed and because of this when Harry turns his eye on Snape, he can only see that Snape is hiding something. What he is hiding is unknown, but Harry doesn't know that he can pick up more than everyone else. He didn't even realize he was a Parseltongue, so how would he pick up on this. So his distrust is based partially on his misunderstanding of the relationship between Legimancy and Occulemency.

He also accidentally jumped into Snape's mind in OotP, remember? And there are so many times that Harry has a "feeling" about someone or something that turns out to be true. The only time he was truly off was with Moody/Crouch Jr, but one must assume that BC Jr had put up defenses to prevent Legimency.

So what does all this mean? To me, it means that at the last second, Snape will save him and we'll come to understand the complexity of their relationship. And because of Snape's chiding, Harry will be prepared in both Occulemency and Legimency. And as Snape lay dying, he'll open his mind and let Harry see all that he's done to protect him. And we'll have a great moment where Snape says something like "You're sooo like your father... but only the admirable side of him." and Harry realizes that Snape has all along been trying to prepare him for the fight against Voldy.

That's my convoluted theory for now...

[WickedWitchOfThe...]

I just want to take a second and put up a quick one-liner......


That was EXCELLENT Perseus!!! 39:clap: 39:clap: 39:clap:

[Perseus_Evans]

17:blush: 17:blush: 17:blush: 17:blush: 17:blush: 17:blush:

Thanks WWW!

I forgot to give the clinching bit of evidence too!

In OotP Harry can read V's mind, and became aware of the link before Voldy. And now Voldy has to use Occulemency to keep him out??? This is Voldemort we're talking about. If it was just that they were linked, why wouldn't Voldy be the more in control of the link, as he is the more powerful legimens... Unless...

[bellatrixlestran...]

Unless what????

[ChicanoPrince]

39:clap: 39:clap: 39:clap: 39:clap: 39:clap: 39:clap: 39:clap: 39:clap:

[hpdork]

It does seem to be well thought out. I not quite sure just yet. I do hope that some of your theory is true because I want Snape to actually be good because I can't stand him being evil.

[Styrofoam]

[quote=hpdork,Aug 2 2005, 05:47 PM]
It does seem to be well thought out. I not quite sure just yet. I do hope that some of your theory is true because I want Snape to actually be good because I can't stand him being evil.
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I want to point out that Harry accidentally went into snape's mind by using a sheild charm...

[Guest_bigtim9292_*]

[quote=Styrofoam,Aug 2 2005, 08:07 PM]
I want to point out that Harry accidentally went into snape's mind by using a sheild charm...
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[/quote=bigtim9292,aug 2 2005,9.21]
one thing is that i do not think that snape would be better as a good guy cause how he acts and how looks, he is denfintely a death eater type
i mean think about it like the dark lord he was always very strange as a kid and he's alot like the dark lord 45:gryffindor:

[Bnlfan78]

My question is this...with Snape not being able to openly help Harry with Legimens and Occlumency who is going to help him improve at it. Ron and Hermoine dont seem especially gifted in that area and now DD seems to not be able to help. Harry obviously needs to practise but with who?

[Perseus_Evans]

Given a few things that JKR said, I have a feeling that Harry is going to be forced to do a great deal by himself, and maybe that includes honing those skills. This isn't a quote, but she said something like 'If the hero had too much help, it wouldn't be interesting'

I have a feeling that the second he turns 17, he'll begin practicing both Occlumency and Legimancy by himself, obsessively, along with anything else he can do.

And I have a feeling that Molly will be able to teach him a lot over the next summer.... Yeah she can't riddiculus a boggart away, but if she built that clock, she has some serious power IMO.

[hpdork]

Did Molly build her clock??

Anyway, I too think that Harry will have to do A LOT by himself. It is just the natural way this type of hero story goes. Eventually, the hero is left all alone (no more DD) and is forced to step up to the plate and do it himself. I'm sure Hermione, Ron, and some others will be of some help, but Harry has to do the big stuff all by his lonesome.

[baty4potter]

[quote=hpdork,Aug 3 2005, 02:30 PM]
Did Molly build her clock??
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This is off topic, but that clock has been bugging me also. I'm reading the book again, and I'm in the part where Harry first comes back to the Weasley's, and the clock is saying..... Well I'll leave that for another topic.

But I am wondering about the clock also.

Now back on topic... 02:D

[Bnlfan78]

I imagine they would be hard to practise yourself and I certainly hope Harry doesnt go around trying to read peoples minds out random. And he will need someone to try to read his to learn to block it wouldnt you think? It doesnt seem like something you could get good out without practise.

[Perseus_Evans]

Well hopefully with Hermione and Ron around, they'll be able to help him a bit, if only at the practice level.

Hermione was definitely helpful in GoF with Summoning Charms...

[MollyCoddles]

I'm new here, so forgive me for jumping right in.
I think Harry will NOT learn occlumency. JKR said in an interview that Harry's emotions are too close to the surface and he is in touch with his emotions, which makes him stronger, as he is used to dealing with them (or something like that). I think it is going to be to his advantage to be able to feel compassion, love and pity. Those are the things that Voldemort does not understand and consistently underestimates. JKR also said that occlumency came naturally to Malfoy because he has always been able to shut off his emotions. He shuts off compassion to be a bully, etc.
My theory is that Harry is going to inherit a lot of things from Dumbledore. The pensieve is going to be a huge help. I bet he finds lots of helpful memories in there. Slughorn will be able to help him use it, and Harry can even use it to siphon off any memories he doesn't want Voldemort to "see". I am also wondering if he would be able to retreive early early childhood memories that way to see things that pertain to his parents. He may even find that memory of his own, of the night his parents died, in Dumbledore's pensieve. I think Dumbledore was the first on the scene, grabbed Harry's memory to see what happened, summoned Hagrid to come for Harry, and then went after Voldemort's sidekick. JKR has refused comment on whether Voldemort was alone, so I bet someone else was there. Especially if Voldemort was intending to use Harry for his final horcrux. He may have needed an assistant for that. I don't think Voldemort has made his final horcrux. I think he still wants to use Harry. He wouldn't have been strong enough, as he was not even in a real body, to use Frank Bryce's murder to make one. He is still after Harry. Snape and the DEs know that he wants to kill Harry himself. I think he is still planning to use Harry, and has ordered that no one else should touch him.
Oh, and someone mentioned a silver thing on Charlie Weasley's arm (might have been a different thread) and wondered if he could be a DE. That can't be. For one, Charlie would only have been a small child, like 7 or so, when Voldemort was zapped. And the book says it's a shiny burn, from dragons.
I have other theories too, but I will try to post them on existing threads...

[spudbud11330]

So what does all this mean? To me, it means that at the last second, Snape will save him and we'll come to understand the complexity of their relationship. And because of Snape's chiding, Harry will be prepared in both Occulemency and Legimency. And as Snape lay dying, he'll open his mind and let Harry see all that he's done to protect him. And we'll have a great moment where Snape says something like "You're sooo like your father... but only the admirable side of him." and Harry realizes that Snape has all along been trying to prepare him for the fight against Voldy.

this is all very good thinking and could be very possible, however i have one problem with it. lets not forget that it was snape who killed DD. i think it is safe to assume that harry felt DD was the one who could truley help him the most and snape had to have known this. with this thought, if snape was to help harry all along, then why had he killed DD in the first place? killing DD doesnt help harry, but only makes things harder for him.

[Witherwings]

Unless killing DD is what pushes Harry on his final quest to kill Voldemort. He's pretty much been hesitant to confront Voldemort, seeking comfort in the school and the teachers. Now that one of the teachers betrayed the headmaster, a student attempted to kill the headmaster, and the other teachers are discussing the closing of Hogwarts, Harry will be pushed to fulfill his destiny. Setting up an elaborate plan like this, including assigning Snape the position of DADA teacher (which Snape states he won't be given in the first chapter and which Harry states will result in Snape only remaining one more year at Hogwarts). If DD stayed alive, Hogwarts open, and the school pretty much remaining in tact in terms of students and professors, Harry would have an additional year of comfort and safety. Again, Harry is now forced to confront Voldemort head on. What would have given him more an impetus to do so than the death of someone he looked up to as a father figure?

[felix_felicis]

I came up with an idea shortly after completing HBP, but I've since refined it and fleshed it out a bit more...

Three major things that I've concluded:

1.  Snape, upon finding out that James and Lily had been killed, feels remorseful and goes to DD for forgiveness.  Snape says he will do anything to regain DD's trust.  DD asks for the Unbreakable Vow...  "Will you do everything in your power to protect Harry Potter from death, sacrificing everything if necessary?"  "I will."  For this reason, I think DD trusted Snape, beyond the norm, because he was bound, and that he only told Harry the "your-dad-saved-snape's-life" story to prevent him from blowing Snape's cover.

When Harry comes to school, Snape is conflicted about having to protect the child of his school-days enemy, James, and does nothing to hide his disdain for the boy, since it's not part of the vow.  In fact, he comes to resent the vow so much that he goes out of his way to knock the kid down a peg, since he seems so much like his father, and tormenting the boy doesn't conflict with the vow.

2.  Snape is a natural Legimens and can read minds very easily.  We already know this to some extent, but our information suggests that he can't read Harry's mind very well.  I think that info is wrong.  I believe that Snape can read Harry just fine and uses a non-verbal Legimancy spell, each time he let's his gaze linger on Harry.  His ability to sense Harry's distrust of him, increases his own dislike of the boy, especially since the boy doesn't appreciate the sacrifices that have been made to keep him alive.  (It may also have to do with Snape's affection for Lily, but that isn't 100% necessary). 

We also saw evidence of this at the end of HBP when Snape is blocking every spell, and telling Harry he must close his mind.  It also supports the Vow theory in that he didn't retaliate and prevented other DEs from attacking Harry (yes, because Voldy wants him, but what a great excuse...)

3.  After I'd decided that the above two things were true, something was still bothering me.  I couldn't figure out why Harry distrusted Snape so much.  I couldn't resolve that his instant dislike of Snape was purely due to feeling the scar itch after the sorting in PS/SS. 

Then it hit me.  One of the powers that Voldy passed on to Harry, was an innate Legimancy ability.  Because of this, Harry does many things that without such a power he might not have done.  He chose friends who are sincere and loyal (Ron's total lack of guile was one of the first qualities he displayed, while Draco's conniving way was obvious to him from the start).  In the end, he's friends only with people who have no agenda.

He also instantly distrusts Snape, and I believe this is because he couldn't get a read on him.  Snape's use of Occlumency is also well-honed and because of this when Harry turns his eye on Snape, he can only see that Snape is hiding something.  What he is hiding is unknown, but Harry doesn't know that he can pick up more than everyone else.  He didn't even realize he was a Parseltongue, so how would he pick up on this.  So his distrust is based partially on his misunderstanding of the relationship between Legimancy and Occulemency.

He also accidentally jumped into Snape's mind in OotP, remember?  And there are so many times that Harry has a "feeling" about someone or something that turns out to be true.  The only time he was truly off was with Moody/Crouch Jr, but one must assume that BC Jr had put up defenses to prevent Legimency.

So what does all this mean?  To me, it means that at the last second, Snape will save him and we'll come to understand the complexity of their relationship.  And because of Snape's chiding, Harry will be prepared in both Occulemency and Legimency.  And as Snape lay dying, he'll open his mind and let Harry see all that he's done to protect him.  And we'll have a great moment where Snape says something like "You're sooo like your father...  but only the admirable side of him." and Harry realizes that Snape has all along been trying to prepare him for the fight against Voldy.

That's my convoluted theory for now...
[right][snapback]78803[/snapback][/right]

well the theory deffinitely could all fall into place but i believe its a bit to far fetched but THEN again WHEN has jk eva been straigh forward its a great story and would be a great ending but i do not believe this to be accurate


SPELL YOUR WORDS OUT!!!

This post has been edited by baty4potter: Sep 1 2005, 04:45 PM

[johnnybot]

Hello everyone,,

Here is my crazy idea and I'm not an expert but if Snape were Harrys true Father,
that would explain Dumbledores unquestionable trust in him and Snape's constant accusations against Harrys Father.
Its like Snape is trying to warn Harry that his so called Father
is not whom he appears to be.
Also, the half blood prince textbook was not vindictive in its nature
as Harry defended the owner.
To call yourself a half blood prince doesn't necessarily mean allegiance
to Voldemort as Harry believes.
It may mean Snape was an unlikely hero at the school, standing up for the weaker students like Harry does now.
Dumbledore also makes allusions to this in his statement on love
as if warning Harry that his mind is currently clouded by hate for Snape
so he cannot see through the surface of Snapes true intentions.
Also Harry discovered from Dumbledore compassion for Draco
as it was fear for his family that motivated Draco to plot Dumbledore’s demise not hate.
Harry should be looking at these people with eyes of love
but has become increasingly paranoid and angry instead.
Snape would also understand that on Harry's 17th birthday
the protection of the Dursely's enchantment will leave him and Voldemort
will have access to the secrets in Harry's mind,,
Snape has been shaping Harrys mind all along to prepare for the upcomming battle.
If Harrys mind is full of hate for Snape, Voldemort will not suspect him,,
None of this can be told to Harry however and that’s why Dumbledore nearly started crying in the 6th book when Harry speaks words of devotion to him,,
Dumbledore understands all to well he is not the only one who loves Harry,,
Even Snape’s very name suggests that he is tricking Harry into believing the worst of him for to snape someone in cards is to fool them into believing
you are holding something other than they think,,
I believe the horcrux are smoke and water and introduced by Rowling to confuse the issue,, It is obvious to draw the conclusion that Harry is himself a horcrux
Perhaps Harrys Father found out that Harry was Snapes lovechild and in his rage called Voldemort in to kill Harry Lilly and Snape but the plan backfired and forced Snape to become a deatheater to protect his son.
Voldemort is still unaware of the link and can never be told.
I believe Harry will learn lots of things from the pensive
that will confuse his world view in the upcoming book.

I also believe Dumbledore is probably dead as Rowling has said she wants
Her hero to fight this fight alone.

Harry’s biggest challenge is to learn to overcome hate and he can only do this
By siding with his now mortal enemy Snape.

What happens to Voldemort in the end is almost unimportant as he is
only a symbol of the evil of mankind.

[baty4potter]

I really don't believe Snape would be Harry's dad. There is too much reference to Harry looking like his dad, but having his mums eyes.