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> The fate of Lord Voldemort
Perseus_Evans
post Sep 12 2006, 04:13 PM
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WWW, I agree wholeheartedly that the careful choice in the wording should be enough to give us at least an IDEA of how Jo will end her epic... So now I'm going to go line by line with my take on each one. Bear with me folks... I'm also going to talk about how it would apply to Harry's fate, but also to Snape (just read before you laugh)...

“THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD APPROACHES…BORN TO THOSE WHO HAVE THRICE DEFIED HIM, BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES AND THE DARK LORD WILL MARK HIM AS AN EQUAL, BUT HE WILL HAVE POWERS THE DARK LORD KNOWS NOT…AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHER FOR NEITHER CAN LIVES WHILE THE OTHER SURVIVES…THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD WILL BE BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES…”

First: "THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD APPROACHES…"

The use of the word "approaches" troubles me greatly, since as has been stated in other forums, that could mean the prophecy refers to Snape... And I'm not convinced it's not our greasy-haired potions master after all...

In the Harry possibility... "approaches" would be "is about to be born", but it's not quite close enough for my taste.

Second: "BORN TO THOSE WHO HAVE THRICE DEFIED HIM"

The word "defied" is somewhat unclear here. Just what does it take to defy someone. Could Tobias Snape and his wife have also resisted Voldy. Marrying a muggle could be defiance. Trying to steer Severus away from the Dark Arts could be a defiance... Just making the point...

We know about Harry's folks already...

Third: "BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES AND THE DARK LORD WILL MARK HIM AS AN EQUAL,"

Do we know Snape's birthday, because the Dark Mark could be the "EQUAL" mark as easily as the scar (forgot who suggested this in the other post, but suffice it to say I'm expanding on another member's theory here)

In Harry's case, this is my big indication that the scar could be a Horcrux. If Voldy truly gave him a piece of his soul in the scar, then he's even more of an equal than we're aware (my other theory is that Harry is in fact a Voldemort redux, a second chance for Voldemort's soul... but that's way too much to get into here).
If Harry has a piece of Voldy inside him, then some of the other phrases make more sense...

Fourth: "BUT HE WILL HAVE POWERS THE DARK LORD KNOWS NOT"

I'll start with Harry here... love from his mother and thus the ability to love... There may be much more to this...

With Snape, I'm thinking this could be an "old magic" issue, as yet unrevealed in the story. What if James Potter, in the process of saving Snape from Lupin had sealed a magical bond (we know there's a special magic here as DD pointed out with Wormtail/Harry) between him and Snape. And now Snape has a different protection specifically set up to allow him to avenge the death of the man who saved his life. My final scene in this scenario involves Snape saving Harry and when Voldy tries to AK him, it bounces back and kills Voldy (all horcruxes but Harry's scar out of the way). This is of course a bit far out there, but something similar could happen. It's also nice and clean since Harry's mum's protection saved him and Harry's dad's could save Snape (in a perfect use of irony).

Fifth: "AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHER FOR NEITHER CAN LIVES WHILE THE OTHER SURVIVES"

WWW has the same take on this one... The important distinction is the difference between "living" and "surviving". One does not "live" if they are consumed by the unfinished business, such as the business that Harry and Snape both have with Voldy. Avenging the death of the Potters.

Voldy's unfinished business is to kill the subject of the Prophecy.

Sixth: "THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD WILL BE BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES…”

Here's the line that always bothered me the most. Why repeat the birthday issue? I mean it's a prophecy right? It's not like Trewlawny suddenly got confused and said, "oh and did I mention THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD WILL BE BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES…”

To me it suggests this is the key line, and also that the very careful wording doesn't necessarily mean that the birth is yet to take place... It could be the same as "You will meet a stranger who will be born on the 3rd of February"... In fact, I feel like JKR wrote the original prophecy without this line and then added it to make sure that we never doubt that it's Harry.

OK... So in case you haven't figured it out... I'm now thinking that the prophecy is actually about BOTH Harry and Snape (much like it could have been about Harry or Neville).

Obviously this is the most convoluted theory so far and "that is saying something", but here's how I see the end...

Snape saves Harry. Voldy AKs him. It bounces back, creating another disembodied version of Voldy. Voldy's soulless essence seeks out the last Horcrux (Harry's scar) finds that he can't touch it in that form because Harry's love is too painful for his cursed soul to bond with. He spends the rest of his existence as a disembodied and soulless darkness (a fate worse than death) until Harry dies of old age.

Of course there are other possible outcomes within my theory, but this is the one I like best right now...

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WickedWitchOfThe...
post Sep 12 2006, 04:31 PM
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Oooooooo, I like that! My turn! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

QUOTE
The use of the word "approaches" troubles me greatly, since as has been stated in other forums, that could mean the prophecy refers to Snape


The way I could see it possibly relating to Snape is that 1) he was approaching the door (sorry, lame joke, lol), and 2) he was drawing nearer to DD and the good side.

QUOTE
In the Harry possibility... "approaches" would be "is about to be born", but it's not quite close enough for my taste.


This one is good enough for me. I just like Jo using "approaches" instead of "about to be born."

QUOTE
Marrying a muggle could be defiance. Trying to steer Severus away from the Dark Arts could be a defiance


Good point! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

QUOTE
Do we know Snape's birthday


January 8th.

QUOTE
If Voldy truly gave him a piece of his soul in the scar, then he's even more of an equal than we're aware


Though I don't like the scar=horcrux theories, I like this line of thought. He would mark him as an equal even more than he would be aware. I still stand by the necessity of needing to say an incantation to make a Horcrux though.

QUOTE
What if James Potter, in the process of saving Snape from Lupin had sealed a magical bond


Actually, this should be the case and I'll be a bit disappointed if Jo doesn't make something of it, to be honest.

QUOTE
WWW has the same take on this one


Thank you, Dear! That is a huge compliment coming from you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

QUOTE
Snape saves Harry. Voldy AKs him. It bounces back, creating another disembodied version of Voldy. Voldy's soulless essence seeks out the last Horcrux (Harry's scar) finds that he can't touch it in that form because Harry's love is too painful for his cursed soul to bond with. He spends the rest of his existence as a disembodied and soulless darkness (a fate worse than death) until Harry dies of old age.


I really really like this ending!!!! I think it would be a fantastic end to our wonderful series!

So what do you think about the "AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHER" part? Do you think it really literally means death, or like with the living part, do you think it could mean death as in not really living, but still surviving? That's what I'm starting to see in it and I think you are starting to see the same thing too.
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Perseus_Evans
post Sep 13 2006, 01:14 AM
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"AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHER"...

This phrase... I think I avoided talking about it because it really doesn't fit with my theory huh?

Unless....

What if the term "at the hand..." refers to the cause, as opposed to the intent...

What I mean here is that Harry or Snape may not "act" to kill him as much as be the cause of Voldy's death.

If my theory above holds true, then both Harry and Snape are the cause of Voldy's death in a passive way. Snape's and Harry's "power" would be the protection of those that died at Voldemort's hand... James and Lily, respectively... But they would only be passive participants in Voldy's demise, in that Voldy's attempts to kill them will be the cause of his own death. Yet it will be at their hands.

Also, I'm becoming more and more convinced, as I talk this through, that Trelawny's prophecy may well have been a reference to both Snape and Harry (almost overlapping actually), since, according to my ending above, each of them will contribute their "power" in destroying the Dark Lord...

Snape "approaches" and Harry is "born as the seventh month dies"... both having a "power" the dark lord knows not...

And if you think about the fact that Trelawny is in a trance, AND she becomes repetitive makes me think that there's some duality there... Plus I think McGonnagal is right that divination is "imprecise"...

I also think Dumbledore knew this all along... (See my theory on DD living backwards in time...)

OK I'm done... Yes I know... I know... Very very convoluted... :)
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gazbo-s
post Sep 14 2006, 04:39 AM
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The big problem that I see with your theory (impressive though it is) is that we know that JKR chose the words VERY carefully, and I cannot see her using the exact same phrase ("THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD") to mean two different people. In your theory the first line means Snape, and the last means Harry, and even though Divination is an imprecise art, I am not sure that true prophecy is - there is "wriggle room" (such as does the prophecy here refer to Harry or Neville) but I am pretty sure that true prophecy is fairly exact in what it means, and I just cannot see this referring to two different people.

It's the use of the words "THE ONE" at the start and end - this suggests it is talking about one person - if it had said "ONE WITH THE POWER" then there would have been the required "wriggle room". It's the same with the "WILL BE BORN" - even if Snape had been born in July, it couldn't have applied to him as the future tense here is again very specific - it had not come to pass yet that he has been born.

As for the "AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHER", I have my own theory about this which is that Wormtail will do the actual killing of LV to save Harry (and will die in the process I think). In my theory, the final conflict sees Harry unable to actually kill LV himself, and Wormtail acts to save Harry (and repay his life debt) when LV is about to kill Harry. By dying as well, I think Wormtail will gain redemption for his betrayal of his friends - and we all know that JKR is big on redemption! In this case, "AT THE HAND OF" means that Wormtail is the instrument of Harry's will - Harry wants LV dead to stop the killing, but cannot himself perform the task (we cannot have our hero perform the ultimate act of evil), so Wormtail does the actual deed (silver hand anyone?).

Sorry for the long post.
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Perseus_Evans
post Sep 14 2006, 11:31 AM
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In a devil's advocate kind of way I must point out that you're in conflict with yourself here...

A) "I am pretty sure that true prophecy is fairly exact in what it means"

yet you say...

B) "In this case, "AT THE HAND OF" means that Wormtail is the instrument of Harry's will"

If you're saying the prophecy is "exact" you can't really interpret "at the hand of" in any other way than Harry doing the actual killing. It's awfully convenient to take a rigid stance about most of the phrases in the prophecy yet still let one or two of the phrases be interpreted subjectively in order to fit your theory... I know, because I've done it many times, myself I guess. No offense meant at all.

No matter what though, I think you're probably right that Wormtail will be there in the end and Harry's choice to spare his life will be a major factor in Voldy's downfall.



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gazbo-s
post Sep 14 2006, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE
If you're saying the prophecy is "exact" you can't really interpret "at the hand of" in any other way than Harry doing the actual killing. It's awfully convenient to take a rigid stance about most of the phrases in the prophecy yet still let one or two of the phrases be interpreted subjectively in order to fit your theory... I know, because I've done it many times, myself I guess. No offense meant at all.


I don't think that I am being inconsistent. By saying exact I meant that the phrase was exactly the same and couldn't (in my opinion) be taken to refer to two different people (as I said it's the use of the word "THE"). I said that the prophecy was CAREFULLY worded - and I stand by this and by my interpretation. "AT THE HAND OF" can indeed mean directly by, or it can also mean "THROUGH THE AGENCY OF" - ie. being the one who put it in motion. As I said, I see Wormtail as being the agent of Harry's will - he has no choice in the matter as he has to save Harry's life to save his own when Harry is about to be killed by LV. Harry's actions earlier (in POA) make this an inevitability if my scenario is anywhere near correct.

I really was not being subjective in my interpretation. If my theory is correct then it fits in perfectly well with the wording of the prophecy. No offence taken.
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WickedWitchOfThe...
post Sep 15 2006, 03:53 PM
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I think the only problems I have with the Wormtail theories are the "born to those that have thrice defied him" and "born as the seventh month dies" parts. Unfortunately, I have nothing to give as evidence for either one. It has never been revealed what PP's Birthday is, and nothing has ever been said about his parents either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) It can be a bit aggravating that we can't just step into Jo's mind and find out what we want to know when we want to know it, isn't it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Perseus_Evans
post Sep 17 2006, 03:48 PM
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I have a feeling that all of us will be hitting ourselves on the head when the final battle plays out, and we'll be saying "oh.... I should have figured that out! It was so obvious in the wording of the prophecy!", but for now, that inability to perform Legillemcy on JKR will keep us from knowing... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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WickedWitchOfThe...
post Sep 17 2006, 03:56 PM
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LOL! Yeah, like the HBP being Snape. That was so painfully obvious and we were all so busy trying to figure it out that we basically eliminated the obvious. That one truly hurt! We should've had that figured out five minutes after the covers were released. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
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Hermione@13
post Sep 17 2006, 06:17 PM
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I think the Prophecy either means Harry or Neville as they are the only ones that fit the puzzle until it says "will be marked as his equal" then I think the Prophecy refers to Harry. The thing that really gets me is "approaches". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fragend005.gif)
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