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> The Death of Dumbledore, How this impacts on 'The Snape Question'
the_prisoner_of_...
post Jun 20 2007, 01:26 AM
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I've been looking for a topic to put this in for a while. So here it is, Did Dumbledore plan his own death? What clues do the events leading up to Dumbledore's death give us in relation to the loyalties of Snape.

1. The Unbreakable Vow.
In Spinners End Snape is able to reason convincingly to Bellatrix his actions. Whether or not this reasoning is the whole truth, or a mix, is unknown. When Snape agrees to make the Vow, he is under the impression that it will simply require him to protect Draco. But no, once the Vow has already started it's thrown in that Snape must kill Dumbledore should Draco be unsuccesful. Snape has no choice but to agree, disagreement would certainly lead to his death at the hands of Voldemort. Perhaps Snape intended to fulfill the vow, perhaps he intended to die because of it. Either way, Snape does tell Dumbledore. Upon learning that Snape had made the Unbreakable Vow with Bellatrix and Narcissa, Dumbledore knew that either Snape and Draco would die or he himself would have to die. The argument supports the theory that Dumbledore's death was to protect the lives of Snape and Draco.

2. Visiting the Dursleys
The fact that Dumbledore went to Harry's house and made sure that Harry could return there next year. Why would Dumbledore have to do this, in person, at this moment. Perhaps Dumbledore knew his time was running out and was making sure that in the event he wasn't alive next year, that Harry would be taken care of. He makes no mention of talking to the Dursley's ever again. This, at least to me, makes it seem like Dumbledore is tying up some loose ends.

3. Snape as DADA professor?
This bugs me. Dumbledore knows the job is cursed. He knows Snape will only last a year in the job, perhaps Snape believes this too. Did Dumbledore give Snape the job in the hope of getting him out of the way? Doesn't seem like Dumbledore to me. Perhaps then, Dumbledore knew that Snape would only be teaching one more year at Hogwarts anyway. If Dumbledore and Snape planned his death, then Snape would most definatly have to leave the school after commiting the murder. I wonder what Voldemort thought when he learned of this.

4. The argument between Snape and Dumbledore.
This is crucial, or so it appears anyway. From what we know (JKR wrote it in such a way that it's hard to get any deffinates from it) Snape doesn't want to do whatever he agreed to do anymore. If we assume they are talking about a plan for Snape to kill Dumbledore, well we can see why Snape doesn't want to do it. By killing Dumbledore (on DD's orders) Snape would infact...be on the good side, but no one other then Dumbledore would know. Snape, would be treated the way Sirius was.


5. The look of revoltion on Snape's face right before he murdered Dumbledore.
hmmm. Again difficult. Was it revoltion at having to kill Dumbledore, or revoltion for the man himself. The look described is undeniably similar to Harry's look in the previous chapter. But the difference is it specifically mentions that Harry is mad at himself, whereas we are left to guess for Snape

"Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it, so that Dumbledore drank the remainder of the potion inside."
"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face."

This is all the sort of stuff most fans know already, but there is much much more I have to add to this and I will hopefully get it all done by the time DH is released. So for now this is to be continued...

This post has been edited by the_prisoner_of_azkaban: Jun 20 2007, 07:55 PM
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You-Know-Poo
post Jun 20 2007, 11:44 AM
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QUOTE(the_prisoner_of_azkaban @ Jun 19 2007, 11:26 PM) [snapback]128795[/snapback]
I've been looking for a topic to put this in for a while. So here it is, Did Dumbledore plan his own death? What clues do the events leading up to Dumbledore's death give us in relation to the loyalties of Snape.

1. The Unbreakable Vow.
In Spinners End Snape is able to reason convincingly to Bellatrix his actions. Whether or not this reasoning is the whole truth, or a mix, is unknown. When Snape agrees to make the Vow, he is under the impression that it will simply require him to protect Draco. But no, once the Vow has already started it's thrown in that Snape must kill Dumbledore should Draco be unsuccesful. Snape has no choice but to agree, disagreement would certainly lead to his death at the hands of Voldemort. Perhaps Snape intended to fulfill the vow, perhaps he intended to die because of it. Either way, Snape does tell Dumbledore. Upon learning that Snape had made the Unbreakable Vow with Bellatrix and Narcissa, Dumbledore knew that either Snape and Draco would die or he himself would have to die. The argument supports the theory that Dumbledore's death was to protect the lives of Snape and Draco.

2. Visiting the Dursleys
The fact that Dumbledore went to Harry's house and made sure that Harry could return there next year. Why would Dumbledore have to do this, in person, at this moment. Perhaps Dumbledore knew his time was running out and was making sure that in the event he wasn't alive next year, that Harry would be taken care of. He makes no mention of talking to the Dursley's ever again. This, at least to me, makes it seem like Dumbledore is tying up some loose ends.

3. Snape as DADA professor?
This bugs me. Dumbledore knows the job is cursed. He knows Snape will only last a year in the job, perhaps Snape believes this too. Did Dumbledore give Snape the job in the hope of getting him out of the way? Doesn't seem like Dumbledore to me. Perhaps then, Dumbledore knew that Snape would only be teaching one more year at Hogwarts anyway. If Dumbledore and Snape planned his death, then Snape would most definatly have to leave the school after commiting the murder. I wonder what Voldemort thought when he learned of this.

3. The argument between Snape and Dumbledore.
This is crucial, or so it appears anyway. From what we know (JKR wrote it in such a way that it's hard to get any deffinates from it) Snape doesn't want to do whatever he agreed to do anymore. If we assume they are talking about a plan for Snape to kill Dumbledore, well we can see why Snape doesn't want to do it. By killing Dumbledore (on DD's orders) Snape would infact...be on the good side, but no one other then Dumbledore would know. Snape, would be treated the way Sirius was.
5. The look of revoltion on Snape's face right before he murdered Dumbledore.
hmmm. Again difficult. Was it revoltion at having to kill Dumbledore, or revoltion for the man himself. The look described is undeniably similar to Harry's look in the previous chapter. But the difference is it specifically mentions that Harry is mad at himself, whereas we are left to guess for Snape

"Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it, so that Dumbledore drank the remainder of the potion inside."
"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face."

This is all the sort of stuff most fans know already, but there is much much more I have to add to this and I will hopefully get it all done by the time DH is released. So for now this is to be continued...


Totally Of Subject-You have two #3's

Along those line I do think he planned his own death.
But I think it was much more then Dumbledore dying...

He faked it.
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WickedWitchOfThe...
post Jun 20 2007, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE
Totally Of Subject-You have two #3's


Fixed! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Keep going, TPOA! You're doing a fine job! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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the_prisoner_of_...
post Jun 20 2007, 08:42 PM
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The Unbreakable Vow

Here's another point on The Unbreakable Vow. Now we know Snape made one with Bellatrix and Narcissa promising to protect Draco. What this gave Bellatrix was a confirmation of Snape's loyalty. Seems to me a little bit like Dumbledore's attitude towards Snape. He had proof that Snape had turned. So maybe this proof was in the form of an Unbreakable Vow. We can only speculate on this, but there is some stuff we do know.

1.Snape turned before Voldemort's downfall.
My question is, if a vow was made before Voldemort's demise, what kind of vow was it? To Dumbledore, to the Potter's, to the Order? I'll get back to this.

2. Dumbledore said he had proof.
Well if Snape made a vow to be loyal to dumbledore it would certainly be proof. The moment Snape turned he would, probably, die.

That's about all we know as far as a possible vow with Snape goes. Now for some guesswork. Let's assume Snape tells the prophecy to Voldemort having no idea who it could concern. Snape then learns that there are two targets, the Potters or the Longbottoms. OK, no biggie Snape doesn't care for James and I don't think he has any real issues with the Longbottoms, so why change sides now? There must be something else, he must have a reason for changing. Now, we can assume, it was because of Lilly. I'm not saying there was anything romantic involved so just stick with me for a bit.

The Lily Factor

1. Lilly Potter was better at potions then Snape.
Slughorn says in HBP..."not even Severus..." in reference to the talents of Lilly. Notice how Slughorn always compares Harry to Lilly not Snape, when Snape infact went on to become potions master. Obviously Snape had talent, but it lay in DADA.

So here's how this plays out. Snape is obviously amazingly gifted at potions. Dumbledore went to him after the incident with the ring, because of his talents. Snape brewed the Wolfsbane potion for Lupin. Snape was able to make changes to the potion instrustions to create brilliant potions. So if Snape was this good can you imagine how good Lilly must have been?
Here's my point. Perhaps, Snape didn't make up those modifications. Perhaps he saw Lilly doing it, or perhaps the two of them worked it out together. These two were definatly the top of their class, so it's quite possible they worked..not together but there was at least some competition between the two. Imagine how hard this would have been for Snape, being between by a muggle-born. On any level they had a connection through potions.

2. Lilly stood up for Snape.
We all read it, OOTP Snapes Worst Memory. Lilly defended poor old Snape and in return she was called a mud-blood. Now Lilly's reaction to this entire situation suggests this kind of behaviour was unexpected by Snape. Never the less for some reason Lilly did stick up for dear old Snape.

3. Snape never says a cruel word about Lilly.
Snape is always insulting James to Harry, but never in all the books did he say a cruel word about Lilly. Perhaps because she was kind to him. From what we can gather, Lilly was one of the few people who ever stood up for Snape and being a mud-blood she was the one person Snape didn't want to.

So what does The Lilly Factor have to do with an Unbreakable Vow?

Snape learns that the Potters are a target. He has no worries what-so-ever with the impending death of James. But Lilly..could he be resonsible for the death of the one women who cared for him, who respected him? I don't think he could. No matter how evil I think Snape is I don't think he could bring himself to be so heavily involved in Lilly's death. So he seeks out the one person who could prevent it, Dumbledore. Now remember, DD knows Snape is a Death Eater having thrown him out of the bar for listening in on the prophecy. Obviously DD knows to put the Longbottoms and the Potters into hiding. But Snape comes to him, asking to help, perhaps knowing he can't continue with the task. Dumbledore wants proof, and so he asks Snape to make the Unbreakable Vow. There are a couple of different vows he could have made.

1. To protect the two children in the event of their parents deaths. (I'll explain why I don't think this is likely later)
2. To remain loyal to the Order/Dumbledore

Now, referring to vow one I believe that if such a vow as this was made, it was made after Voldemort decided to go after Harry. Therefore (because of Lilly) Snape made the one vow he never wanted to make to protect the child of James Potter.

Lilly however, is simply one possible factor and the other which I believe in almost as equally is The Power Factor (which hopefully I get to some time later today).
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