The Hidden Powers of the Founders Artifacts, The Minor Arcana theory Options

[Perseus_Evans]

With 20 days to go, I am in my last reread of HBP, and noticed a few things during the viewing of Hokey's memory of the exchange between Tom Riddle and Hepzibah Smith. And a few leaps later, I've come to some new conclusions...

First, I wanted to talk about the "powers" that Hepzibah says are rumored to be present in both the Cup and the Locket.

Though I only have a vague idea of what these powers are, I need to point out that the moment that Voldy got his claws on those two items (having killed Hepzibah and framed Hokey), he quits his job at Borgin and Burkes and disappears. When Harry asks Dumbledore why he was willing to give up his life for these objects, Dumbledore says the ties to Hogwarts played apart, but then he says "There were other reasons, I think... I hope to be able to demonstrate them to you in due course." One of the "other reasons" we find out later, was his intention to use the objects as Horcruxes. But it would seem Dumbledore thought there was more to it, and the "due course" may have been cut short by his death, leaving the second reason unexplained. Then I came to wonder whether it has anything to do with the powers of these objects...

Voldy was a powerful wizard and likely was able to determine just what powers were present in each of the items... Just what would these powers be? I'll come back to this question, because my answers are dependent on the next observations regarding the Tarot (Cartomancy is the term Trewlawney uses...)

I had already concocted a drawn out theory regarding the Major arcana previously found here: http://www.harrypotterspage.com/forums/ind...3&hl=arcana

Why it's taken me until now to realize that the Minor arcana were probably just as significant if not moreso, I've no idea...

One thing to understand is that all playing cards today are based upon the Tarot cards' minor arcana. And while today they are spades, hearts, diamonds and clubs, originally they were swords, cups, coins, and wands. (the last two have been also known are pentacles and batons in variations)

Let's see here... Four "suits" in the minor arcana. Gryffindor's Sword... Hufflepuff's Cup... Slytherin's locket (a stretch to a coin, but I'm starting to think it's what's inside the locket that counts)... and perhaps that means Ravenclaw's object of power was her Wand.

Did Voldy want to go back to the school to try and find the Sword or the Wand or both? I'm thinking these were the goals of his seeking the post of DADA teacher the second time.

I believe the founders may have originally intended their respective objects to act as complimentary to each other. Each object more powerful than alone, when paired with another. The four objects working in unison, perhaps would make the wielder so powerful as to be unchallengeable by any other wizard. Who would seek such a power??? Hmmm....

Voldy, having already discovered that creating a Horcrux allowed him to trade a piece of his soul for a bit of the object's power (for lack of a better way of putting it) realized that by using objects of great power, he himself could be much more powerful. And only later did he realize that there was more power in the combination of the Cup and the Locket, which made him want to more aggressively search for the remaining objects.

For these reasons, I believe the "something of Ravenclaw's" is her wand.

I believe that the sword of Gryffindor must not fall into Voldy's hands, as that would give him ultimate power at Hogwarts.

Now back to the powers question... In the world of Tarot, Swords generally represent Strength, Cups represent Love, Coins represent Wealth, and Wands represent Work.

I believe the person who wields the sword to have great strength. It's the only way I can imagine a 12 year old running a sword through the skull of a 40 foot serpent.

I believe the cup provides the wielder with the power to elicit unwavering love and loyalty from those around them. It's the only way I can imagine a person of such imaginable evil, maintaining such desperate loyalty of his or her friends and followers. Though I would think that those with the powers such as Occlumency and Legillimency would be somewhat immune.

I believe the person who wields the coin (I'm thinking hidden in the locket, but the Gaunts weren't bright enough to figure it out) to be able to bring about unlimited wealth. Though I'm not sure how this one would have manifested with Voldy...

I believe the person who wields the wand would have vastly enhanced magical power, particularly with regard to charms, and that Voldy's ultimate rise to power was because he had finally located that object... Perhaps even during his visit to Hogwarts to secure the DADA job, though that's pretty unlikely I admit.

So what does it all mean then?
Well, it indicates that the Sword will be very important.
That Hogwarts will be a place of battle.
That the Locket is not the Horcrux or truly and object of power, but what's inside it is, and that it hasn't been destroyed yet, since Voldy's powers haven't diminished.
That it's only because the ring didn't have significant powers that Voldy was not aware of its destruction.
That as the remaining Horcruxes are destroyed, the related powers will leave Voldy, and he will be aware at those moments.

But the big one in my opinion is that it could confirm Harry's scar as a Horcrux... You see, Voldy had accidentally made Harry's scar a horcrux, giving him access to Harry's powers, but not realizing that it would actually be a two way street, and that Harry would retain the Parselmouth capability and such. And this may be exactly why that look of Triumph came into DD's eyes at the end of GoF. Because, while Voldy thought it would bring him the invincibility that Lily had given Harry, all it really did was widen the connection, allowing Harry to tap further into all of Voldy's powers... in fact to be able to say... see through the eyes of another of the Horcruxes maybe? Like Nagini... To access those same powers that Voldy has connected to within all of the Horcruxes. But most importantly level the playing field within that connection to go so far as to force Voldy to employ Occlumency in defense of his mind...

Whew... that was fairly rambling, but I had to type it out. If you've read this far, I commend your patience. Hopefully, I've been clear in my logic, though I may not have filled in all the gaps.

So... poke some holes in this final (maybe) convoluted theory of mine and we may be able to make these next three weeks move all the faster... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by Perseus_Evans: Jul 1 2007, 09:32 PM

[baty4potter]

I'm still having a problem with the scar being a Horcrux, even if it were an accident. In my minds eye, Voldemort would have to know it was a Horcrux, and if this is so then why would he want Harry dead? He knows a couple of the Horcruxes have been destroyed, don't you think he would be afraid to have Harry killed?

Dang, I'm tired, and I'm going to bet once I reread this I'm going to want to change it.

[Perseus_Evans]

baty I'm glad you asked me that question.

Because I have the answer that still fits with the scar = horcrux theory.

Voldy wants Harry dead, but on his terms. Why do you suppose that he has instructed all the Death Eaters not to kill Harry? So he can perform some piece of magic to extract the piece of his soul or something along those lines.

So I ask the opposite question: Why would Voldy NOT want Harry to be killed by his minions?

I don't buy that whole proving that he fears no wizard theory... since I'd imagine he'd have wanted to kill DD himself too. No he wants to make sure he's there to retain the soul fragment.

He was all set to feed Harry to Nagini, so maybe that would have made Nagini a horcrux, if she wasn't already one (which I think she wasn't)...

No matter what... there are holes in my theory that I can see, but I'm not quite ready to point them out just yet... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[mischief managed]

I hva enot once had the slightest inclination to think harry's scar is a horcrux.... and i only saw a tiny bit of flaw in your logic perseus. You stated that the ring and diary are horcruxes... along with voldy, the snake, the locket, the cup and the the wand (you stated may be a horcurx) then, you said harry's scar is a horcrux.
Therefore, that is eight pieces of soul, and it was basically confirmed that there were only 7.

Anyways, moving on, as i was looking through pictures of the four founders (on google), i noticed that godric was holding his sword, Slytherin was wearing his locket, hufflepuff was holding the cup in her hands, and rowena ravenclaw is only holding her wand. i have searched on every site that i could find picture of ravenclaw in, but the only item she had, was a wand. i have always been suspicious that her wand could be a horcrux... and i have always wondered what happens to wizards wand when they die. ( perhaps buried with them ???) but, as soon as jkr changes the wizard of the month on her official website, we will find out if the only item ravenclaw indeed holds is her wand.

[Nossist]

Great theory, I enjoyed reading that. Whether its true or not it still has had some thought put into it.
But didnt DD say that the sword (Only known Gryfindorr artifact) was safe? Maybe there is another which he does not know about, although if that were the case then the theory wouldnt make as much sense.
That would be interesting however maybe when all 4 artifacts are put together it unleashes some sort of magical power OR the veal is connected somehow to the 4 artifacts?
Not sure bb all I know is I cant wait for DH to be released.

[baty4potter]

We also need to keep in mind that Voldemort himself is a horcrux.

Know what Perseus? I'm still thinking on your theory. ;~)

[Perseus_Evans]

I hva enot once had the slightest inclination to think harry's scar is a horcrux.... and i only saw a tiny bit of flaw in your logic perseus. You stated that the ring and diary are horcruxes... along with voldy, the snake, the locket, the cup and the the wand (you stated may be a horcurx) then, you said harry's scar is a horcrux.
Therefore, that is eight pieces of soul, and it was basically confirmed that there were only 7.

We also need to keep in mind that Voldemort himself is a horcrux.

Know what Perseus? I'm still thinking on your theory. ;~)

True, though I suppose I should mention this also ties into my theory that Nagini was made a horcrux to replace the diary...

I mean that Voldy is so obsessed with the idea that seven is the number of power, I would think he'd want to bring the total back to seven as soon as he was aware of the diary's destruction. This would have happened sometime after the graveyard, when Lucius told him about the events in CoS (I seem to recall DD saying his wrath was great or something along those lines).

So the seven are:

The Dark Lord
The Cup
The Locket
The Wand
The Snake (replacing the Diary)
The Ring
The Scar

Another tidbit was the description of the process (or lack thereof) in Slughorn's memory... Young Riddle asked how to "encase" the fragment. The reply was "there is a spell" but Slughorn said he didn't know how to do it. It's a good thing that Voldy was able to track down Grindelwald to find out before DD took care of him a year later... OK now I've just gone too far huh?

The point being that I believe the target object must be enchanted prior to the murder, which is why the fragment was floating free and impacted into Harry's skull when everything imploded...

And maybe just maybe, his intent was to make Harry himself (perhaps the only known relic of Gryffindor as his Heir... the Last Potter, which would explain why he chose the half-blood Harry over the pureblood Neville) a horcrux, but Lily's death prevented its success. It may well be that he thought he could possess Harry from early childhood as the ultimate resolution of Slytherin's vendetta against Gryffindor.

Ask yourself this question though before you discount the Harry is the heir of Gryffindor theory. After Voldy had painstakingly examined the lineage of Slytherin, do you think that he didn't also do the same research into all the other founders? It's quite possible he discovered that the lost line of Gryffindor led right to the James Potter and then Harry. Because... if that's the case, it explains why Lily was given the choice to live or die, while James was not. She was heir to no one but muggles...

One last little thing was that during the conversation between Harry and DD regarding horcruxes, DD is NOT positive that Voldy didn't manage to find another object of power during his job-interview-visit to Hogwarts. The fact that he uses the phrase "to my knowledge" implies that it's possible the goal of the trip to Hogwarts was to do just that. I think he may have gotten the Wand that very night.

This post has been edited by Perseus_Evans: Jul 2 2007, 11:34 AM

[mischief managed]

lol... your all for your 'Harry's Scar is a Horcrux' theory arent you Perseus. I dont know why... but i am very against that. lol

Okay, my reason for thinking Harry's scar was not a horcrux, is this. Even if the sark lord did plant his soul in harry the night his parents died... how would he have done it. According to Slughorn, you need an incantation and voldemort did not do one on purpose, and if he did, why or how. Continuing, would he not have felt a portion of his soul being torn from his whole, knowing, that in the forth book (in the graveyard) , he would have had to extract his soul from harry's scar before he could kill him. But no, voldemort emediately went out to kill harry, and has forever since, tried to kill harry when he had the chance. His reasoning for wanting to kill harry himself, was so he could show the world that harry potter is 'no match against voldemort'. He wants to prove that harry killing, you could say, was a fluke, and he wanted to show the world that he is the most powerful wizard ever.

I do not think voldmeort would split his soul again, after the destruction of the diary, because that would be splitting his soul eight times, even though he thought only 6 horcruxes were remaining. I just for some reason, think that voldemort hasnt created a horcrux in a long time, at least before the night harry's parents died.

[Perseus_Evans]

lol... your all for your 'Harry's Scar is a Horcrux' theory arent you Perseus. I dont know why... but i am very against that. lol

Okay, my reason for thinking Harry's scar was not a horcrux, is this. Even if the sark lord did plant his soul in harry the night his parents died... how would he have done it. According to Slughorn, you need an incantation and voldemort did not do one on purpose, and if he did, why or how. Continuing, would he not have felt a portion of his soul being torn from his whole, knowing, that in the forth book (in the graveyard) , he would have had to extract his soul from harry's scar before he could kill him. But no, voldemort emediately went out to kill harry, and has forever since, tried to kill harry when he had the chance. His reasoning for wanting to kill harry himself, was so he could show the world that harry potter is 'no match against voldemort'. He wants to prove that harry killing, you could say, was a fluke, and he wanted to show the world that he is the most powerful wizard ever.

I do not think voldmeort would split his soul again, after the destruction of the diary, because that would be splitting his soul eight times, even though he thought only 6 horcruxes were remaining. I just for some reason, think that voldemort hasnt created a horcrux in a long time, at least before the night harry's parents died.

Quite true that I'm all about the scar = horcrux theory, since it explains almost all of the ways that the scar reacted to Voldy, and the connection, as well as the transference of power.

On the subject of Voldy wanting to kill Harry, he may have already planned to make Nagini a horcrux with the simple idea that feeding Harry to her would accomplish that feat, but that's a stretch in many ways.

Slughorn said there is a spell, yes. But the spell doesn't actually split the soul. The act of evil, the commitment of murder, is what causes the soul to become fragmented and torn apart. The spell is the means that is used to encase the piece of the soul, but the fragmentation of the soul occurs every time a murder is committed. Clearly, Voldy doesn't mind splitting his soul over and over, since he's committed many more murders than seven. I truly believe he would want to continually have seven pieces outside of himself, regardless of how much the remainder within his body has been shredded...

Even DD speculated that Voldy had intended to use Harry's murder as an opportunity to create the seventh horcrux. And as the seventh horcrux, Voldy may have unknowingly gave the power of the number 7 to Harry... Hmmm maybe that's why the 7th child in a family that hadn't had a daughter in 7 generations (Ginny) finds him ever so dreamy... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This post has been edited by Perseus_Evans: Jul 2 2007, 06:03 PM

[baty4potter]

Dang-it Perseus, you bring out the best discussions!!! I just love it!!! :~)

[Perseus_Evans]

Dang-it Perseus, you bring out the best discussions!!! I just love it!!! :~)

Admit it baty... You just liked the fact that I used the phrase "ever so dreamy..."

But thanks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[You-Know-Poo]

In the opening chapter of GoF, there is a bar called the Hanged Man, one of the mentioned Tarot cards

[baty4potter]

Admit it baty... You just liked the fact that I used the phrase "ever so dreamy..."

But thanks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shhh.gif) don't tell anyone! LOL

[Hermione@13]

Wow, this is amazing! LOL! Okay, I, personally, don't believe that V has made another Horcrux. I think the seven pieces are:1.himself 2.the ring(destroyed) 3.the locket 4.Nagini 5.something of Ravenclaw's 7.the cup.

[Perseus_Evans]

I'm assuming you meant number 6 to be the destroyed diary...

No matter what, most of the related theories are based on the assumption that Voldy knew the scar to be a horcrux and that he replaced the diary, with each possibility increasing the odds against...

However, I know that JKR has put together a puzzle that can be solved. She has said over and over again that the careful reader can decipher the way that DH will turn out. I believe I'm a careful reader, and have been moreso since hearing that.

I could be wrong and have been before about many many things (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But every time I reread, I see more and more that fits the scenarios I've outlined.

The one factor that always bothers me is that still at the end... DD had to be holding back some of the truth from Harry. To protect him? Maybe... To prevent Voldy from knowing his plan through his ability to see through Harry's eyes? Probably...

I'm just glad that all my ramblings have been dated and documented, so if I'm right in the end, I can at least profess to have solved a bit of the puzzle. And what's more fun than that? Really I think it's why we've all come to love this story.

[mischief managed]

Okay... ummm i have to admit... ur "harry's scar is a horcrux" theory has some 'evidence' or depper story behind it.... but still, dd is such a great wizard... and he said he can sense magic in 'the cave'... he said magic leaves traces... and is planting your soul in someonme... or something magic.... yes. DD has been so close to harry for soo long... he would have, many times, felt the dark magic of voldemort soul and possibly, tried to extract it???? It just seems obvious that had voldy's soul resided in harry's scar, dd woulld have at least made an attemp to remove it.

Furthermore... dd explained how a scar created by a curse can connect two wizards, and that some scars can be good, he said he would not destroy harry's scar no matter what... and he surely would have known by now that harry's scar was a horcrux if it actually was. he has explained in satisfying deatil why harry cannot touch voldemort... and why harry can see through voldy eyes... and visa versa. Also, if voldy had a piece of his soul in harry's scar, would it not have been destroyed by his mothers love? I dont know... theres just so much against that theory. lol, so much that i can see anyways.

[Witherwings]

he has explained in satisfying deatil why harry cannot touch voldemort... and why harry can see through voldy eyes...

Apologies, but I didn't know that Harry couldn't touch Voldemort. I know Voldemort couldn't touch Harry until the events of book four, but I didn't know that Harry couldn't touch him. If it's in book one with Qurril, then it was Qurril who couldn't touch Harry because of the unicorn blood and all. Of course, Voldemort had been drinking a serum of unicorn blood and snake venom to keep himself alive. This raises a few questions for me: 1) Have we ever seen Harry touch Voldemort or just Voldemort touching Harry - there is a significant difference. 2) Why was Voldemort hanging on for life in books one and four if he had the horcruxes? My guess is that he "forgot" about them or that he was aware at least one or two had been destroyed and knew he couldn't rely on the horcruxes for immortality. Don't forget that Pettigrew was Ron's rat in the second book and could have recounted all the details to Voldemort about what happened.

All-in-all, I still don't see the scar as a horcrux (unless DD has really been on Voldemort's side and refused to tell Harry this to help Tom - which I don't believe). I think DD would have told Harry about the scar immediately because, remember, DD is trying to help Harry to survive the battle with Tom and to seek out and destroy all the horcruxes. Now, that said, of course DD can be wrong, and his errors, as he's said, are greater than others.

"And maybe just maybe, his intent was to make Harry himself (perhaps the only known relic of Gryffindor as his Heir... the Last Potter, which would explain why he chose the half-blood Harry over the pureblood Neville) a horcrux, but Lily's death prevented its success. It may well be that he thought he could possess Harry from early childhood as the ultimate resolution of Slytherin's vendetta against Gryffindor."

As for Harry being the heir of Gryffindor, I thought JK totally discarded that idea in the interview posted on the theory board.

"It's quite possible he discovered that the lost line of Gryffindor led right to the James Potter and then Harry. Because... if that's the case, it explains why Lily was given the choice to live or die, while James was not. She was heir to no one but muggles..."

But there are many other reasons why Lily would have been offered the chance to live. She's a muggle-born and we know that Voldemort hates muggle-borns, so he wouldn't spare her just because she wasn't an heir. My guess is she was meant to be a "gift" to Snape for his loyalty and for learning of the prophecy.

"It's a good thing that Voldy was able to track down Grindelwald to find out before DD took care of him a year later... "

As for Voldemort tracking down Grindelwald to learn how to do the horcrux, Tom had already learned while at Hogwarts because the death of Myrtle helped him to create the first horcrux (the diary). This would also then assume that Grindelwald had horcruxes which would cause massive complexities. Also, JK hasn't really given us a time-line to follow for the books, so we don't know when the battle with Grindelwald would have taken place in relation to Tom studying at Hogwarts.

"One last little thing was that during the conversation between Harry and DD regarding horcruxes, DD is NOT positive that Voldy didn't manage to find another object of power during his job-interview-visit to Hogwarts. The fact that he uses the phrase "to my knowledge" implies that it's possible the goal of the trip to Hogwarts was to do just that. I think he may have gotten the Wand that very night."

My guess is that he used his award for special services to the school. What better way to feed his ego?

[WickedWitchOfThe...]

1) Have we ever seen Harry touch Voldemort or just Voldemort touching Harry - there is a significant difference.

I believe we've only seen V touch Harry.

Also, JK hasn't really given us a time-line to follow for the books, so we don't know when the battle with Grindelwald would have taken place in relation to Tom studying at Hogwarts.

Let's see, DD defeated Grindelwald in 1945, so that would put V at about 19 years of age or so.

[Witherwings]

Let's see, DD defeated Grindelwald in 1945, so that would put V at about 19 years of age or so.

I apologize because I'm really unaware of how we know how old Voldemort was in 1945. Have I missed something completely? I've been dying to figure out a time-line I can follow for myself so that I know when events before the book have happened.

[WickedWitchOfThe...]

You have to base it off of Nick's Deathday cake and interviews from Jo, that's how I've done it. In COS you see that term started in 1992 and in interviews Jo has given she has indicated the ages of some of the characters. Using what book was released at the time the interview was given, you are able to reasonably discern how old the characters are. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It takes a bit of piecing together on your own, but it can be done. It's just a lot of work. I haven't worked on it myself in a few years even though I know she's clarified Bill and Charlie for us and I've got V as being born on the 1st of January instead of December 31st, which is what it actually is, but if you'd like you can check out my thread here and it should help you on your way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)