Petunia, Snape, and Harry, Was care really there? Options

[Witherwings]

Okay, so I've re-read books one through seven in order and from five, six, and seven, I have a really nagging feeling about Petunia and Snape that JK hasn't yet cleared up. Did they actually care about Harry? This comes first in book five because of the Dementor attacks and then Petunia's fear that Voldemort is back. For Snape, JK writes phrases like, "he spoke softly" every time Harry undergoes Occlumency lessons and memories of Dudley's tormeting ways are available to Snape.

In book six, Petunia also seems to have compassion towards Harry, as she does in book seven. And in book six, Snape is teaching Harry even while running away and in book seven, he does something very interesting - he stutters during the scene with Voldemort where Nagini bites him because he's anxious to get Harry. In book five, we learn that Occlumency requires constant dedication and steady nerves - but he risks his mind being penetrated by Voldemort in this scene.

However, from book one, it seems that Petunia is a very meek wife - she stands behind her husband, allowing him control of the house and family, and based on how he (Vernon) wants to treat Harry, she allows it to continue. However, we don't really see moments of her being all that vicious to Harry herself (though, by no means, exceptionally loving). This raised a question in me about her treatment of Harry - was Harry treated the way he was to protect him? It might sound odd, but could he have been abused as a way of trying to keep him from the magical world so that his life would be safe? As for Snape caring for Harry, perhaps it's not "care" but empathy having experienced the same abuses at the hands of James and others. I'd like to hear what others have to say about the possibility that these two characters could actually possess human emotions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by Witherwings: Aug 15 2007, 10:44 PM

[Nossist]

I think Snape cares for Lilly's son. Not Harry.
Ok dont think that makes sense I'll elaborate.

I think Snape only risked his life for the two reasons that 1) James saved Snape and 2) He loved Lilly.

I think when Snape looks into Harry's eyes he sees Lilly, but when he looks at Harry's face he see's James, his tormentor. This must be phsycological torture for Snape, imagine having his heart broken every day for nearly his whole life after Lilly's death waking up every morning wishing Lilly was here, with him, his wife, waking up with her instead of the opposite, alone.
He looks at Harry and he feels so many emotions, he looks into Harry's eyes and feels love, then a second later he feels hatred as he sees James' face, then he feels anger at himself for what he did, then he feels anger at V, then he feels sorrow.
So as you can see its complicated..

As for Petunia, its kind of the same thing with Snape, she knows harry is her sisters son, she wants to love him but when shes sees Lilly's eyes she feels anger.
I think by the end of the series Petunia had taken this hatred to a new level, you could tell she wanted to say goodby to harry but in the end didnt, maybe she was stubborn? I think Petunia did not really care for Harry, but she, like Snape helped Harry because of Harry's mother. Now petunia didnt like Lilly, but as a last respect for her I believe she took him in because of that.

[snowhite-queen]

although i'd love to think it, i very much doubt snape directly and truly cared about harry. i think snape teaching harry while he runs away in book six, and the stuttering in the scene with nagini in book seven have the same reason: the fact that dumbledore left him orders in relationship with harry potter, and that he agreed and still agrees to follow them no matter what, because of his immense guilt, maybe trust in dumbledore and especially love for LILY - not harry, never harry. i don't think he would ever be able to feel this kind of empathy because of what nossist explained - the psychological torture - and the fact that, as you say, he has experienced the same abuses at the hands of james - but harry reminds him too much of that martyr called james. i'm pretty sure deep down he realizes harry is not like his father in character, because he's far from being stupid, but he will never admit it to anyone else and especially not to himself.
possess human emotion ? of course ! lily, lily, lily ... his whole life was tormented because of her, he was 'the bravest man i ever knew' because of her, the spy and a great help to the order because of/thanks to lily... but no positive emotion for harry. that's what i think.

as for petunia - i think you forget the fact that when she was small, she wrote to dumbledore begging him to accept her...i think her life is tormented by jealousy towards her sister. the easiest way to overcome this jealousy is by hating the person, hating the thing, that makes her jealous! she's not as strong as lily, she chose what was easy rather than what was right. she was positively sure that harry would be a wizard too (i don't think she knew about squibs), and i don't think she could bear raising a child that possesses the thing that always made her so jealous, and destroyed the deep relationship she used to have with lily before the age of 11, and that therefore she despises with all her might.
i think her jealousy made her unable to truly care for him; and 'trying to keep him from the magical world to make him safer' is just an excuse. yes, she knows the danger under which harry is constatly thanks to dumbledore's letters and contact. but personally i don't think she's capable, because of her jealousy, of truly trying to protect him and care for him. maybe a little - the hesitation at the start of book 7, and the other tiny awkward moments you mentioned - but she's not strong enough to put this jealously behind, and feel what is right: care instead of jealousy or immense dislike.
that's my personal view of the matter- it doesn't mean it's the [only] correct one.

This post has been edited by snowhite-queen: Aug 16 2007, 07:38 AM

[Hermy]

I don't think there's any doubt that Snape and Petunia possessed human emotions. The thing I think you're overlooking is that "human emotions" don't necessarily mean good, admirable emotions. Jealousy, hatred, fear, ambivalence, longing, and hurt are all "human emotions," for example, and I think Petunia and Snape both felt all of the above acutely.

From the childhood scenes I think it's clear that Petunia and her sister really did love one another (with the normal sibling fights and rivalries). Petunia was extremely jealous that her sister was chosen to be "special" (i.e. magical) while she was not, but I think she was also heartbroken that her sister, her best friend, was leaving her behind to go off to a school where Petunia was not welcome and learn to be a member of a world Petunia could never inhabit. And because she felt helpless in the face of all of that, she saw no other option to to turn her hurt and jealousy into anger and resentment. That is a classic human emotional response -- we get jealous when others have what we wish we could have, we get angry when others hurt us or leave us behind (intentionally or not). And Petunia carried those emotions around her entire life. Also, I think that helplessness is a key feeling where Petunia is concerned. She internalized that feeling of helplessness and felt that way her whole life, so when it came time to marry she of course chose a bully-type personality who would take the reins, make the decisions, boss her around and tell her what to do, etc. etc....because she felt helpless to take control of her own life. I see her as a very sad figure, really. She's the emotional equivalent of a battered spouse -- she's allowed life and her bully husband to beat her down for so long that she has given up any idea of ever fighting back. She just meekly accepts Vernon's abuse of Harry (which doesn't excuse her behavior, by any means, but makes it more understandable). As far as caring for him, I think her feelings for Lily transferred to Lily's son -- deep down she cared about her sister (and therefore Harry), but she was angry and resentful at what she perceived as Lily's abandonment (and therefore she resented Harry), jealous that Lily had been magical and "special" while she was boring and plain (and therefore jealous of Harry) and so on and so forth. And of course, there's that innately human habit of fearing that which we do not understand. Petunia didn't understand magic, didn't understand why her sister could do magic while she couldn't...and so she feared it, because it was unknown.

That carrying over of emotions across the generations is a common theme throughout the books. We see it with Sirius, Lupin, Petunia, Snape, Pettigrew, and on and on. As for Snape, I totally agree with everyone else. Of course he felt human emotions -- he fell in love, and isn't that the penultimate human emotional experience? And yes, I think he cared for Harry, but ONLY because he was Lily's son. But does that make his sacrifice any less noble? That's the ultimate question, isn't it? I've said before, I think Snape is the ultimate embodiment of humanity in these novels, because he is not clearly good or clearly evil. Just like all of us, his emotions and motivations reside solidly in that gray, foggy area somewhere in between. I think he experienced intense loneliness, which is human, and we know he felt heartbreak. I also agree that he felt those hugley conflicting emotions (love for Lily and hate for James) every time he looked at Harry. And as his whole life was pretty much dedicated to saving Harry, imagine how wrenching that must have been. I think he probably did feel sympathy for Harry when he saw Harry's memories of his unhappy childhood -- that humanized Harry a bit for Snape, allowed him to see that he and Harry were more similar than he thought, that although Harry looked just like James his experiences were more on a par with Snape's. But still, he couldn't erase the fact that he saw James' face every time he looked at Harry.

[Perseus_Evans]

Some very insightful posts on this subject...

Ultimately in both cases, Snape and Petunia, I think that they couldn't bring themselves to care for Harry himself, but their love of Lily kept them loyal to him, allbeit begrudgingly.

The two things that are very interesting here are:

Lily was exceptionally powerful in the area of love. Her love defeated Voldemort on three fronts. First, the protection and sacrifice of Harry. Second, her sister providing a haven allowing Harry to come of age. And third, she had such adoration from Snape that he was instrumental in the eventual final downfall of Voldemort. Not to mention the fact that Harry himself was a direct result of hers and James love of each other... I think that our author would probably admit that she is as much Lily as she is Hermione, if not more.

But the other interesting factor is that both Petunia's and Snape's dislike of Harry was ultimately born of jealousy and regret. Snape was blinded by the fact that he so disliked James for being Lily's love and all the privilige he'd had as a boy (very much like Draco actually), that he couldn't see past it to Harry's core. He could only see James and it created feelings of regret, for being a Death Eater, for Lily's estrangement, for what he thought should have been. That regret caused him to regress to an immature arrogance with Harry, that was one of the more ironic parts of his character. Snape was himself a very arrogant child but could not see that his constant annoyance with James' arrogance was a bit hypocritical. Funny that he could never sympathize with his rival, but Harry was able to see the pain of Draco, eventually (must have inherited that sympathy from Lily...)

And in Petunia, Harry represented the wizarding world. A world she'd been shut out from, yet had obviously yearned to explore. She had reacted to that but pretending that it was she who rejected that world. And Harry was a constant reminder that that wasn't entirely true. In this case, as with Snape, her regret about her own life manifested itself as dislike for Harry.

In the end these characters are redeemed in our eyes, despite the fact that part of each of them was trapped in their childish habits. In a certain way, both Petunia and Snape had a curse scar of their own that would flare up every time Harry was around... The curse of their own regret.

[Witherwings]

"She internalized that feeling of helplessness and felt that way her whole life, so when it came time to marry she of course chose a bully-type personality who would take the reins, make the decisions, boss her around and tell her what to do, etc. etc....because she felt helpless to take control of her own life. I see her as a very sad figure, really. She's the emotional equivalent of a battered spouse -- she's allowed life and her bully husband to beat her down for so long that she has given up any idea of ever fighting back. She just meekly accepts Vernon's abuse of Harry (which doesn't excuse her behavior, by any means, but makes it more understandable)."

Yes, I agree. That's why I wrote "Petunia is a very meek wife - she stands behind her husband, allowing him control of the house and family, and based on how he (Vernon) wants to treat Harry, she allows it to continue" in the initial post.

Ultimately in both cases, Snape and Petunia, I think that they couldn't bring themselves to care for Harry himself, but their love of Lily kept them loyal to him, allbeit begrudgingly.

Perhaps it is the love of Lily. As we learn in book six, Petunia did send Lily a vase for christmas. Even though Lily thought it was horrendous, it was still an attempt at a decent gift (perhaps Petunia's taste and Lily's were vastly different and Petunia thought it was a nice gift). Harry gets horrendous gifts from the Dursleys. However, I can't help but feel that the abuse Harry experiences at the hands of the Dursleys, though cruel because Vernon is a jerk, isn't Petunia's way of protecting Harry. In Vernon, Petunia would have found someone who thought her special and unique, and after years of living with him, would tolerate his behaviors towards her, her son, and her family even if she wouldn't have initially agreed because it became internalized. I can't help but see a mirror of Snape's mother in Petunia - a woman willing to do anything to make her husband happy despite the consequences to her, her children, her family. Perhaps Snape, as a child, is so vicious towards Petunia because he senses this as well. But I do think that she (Petunia) loved Harry (otherwise she never would have kept him safe, kept him after the dementor attack).

And I guess I shouldn't have said "love" in reference to Snape and Harry. But I think in book five, Snape, for the first time, has empathy for Harry because he sees what he has gone through as a result of Dudley's bullying and, of course, can connect to that. Of course, in book six, we learn Snape must've been a bully as well since he developed sectumsempra and levicorpus (which is turned on him). But I do wonder if Snape sees himself in Harry at those moments of occlumency.



EDIT: I've now become interested in the names of Lily and Petunia. I know both are flowers, and Lilies and Petunias both can be beautiful. I'm wondering if there's more signficance in their names that connects to their character traits.

This post has been edited by Witherwings: Aug 18 2007, 01:43 AM