Wandlore, The Elder Wand - Tracing the allegiance Options

[Perseus_Evans]

I've been having trouble, like many of you, in figuring out the rules of wandlore and how the Elder Wand made it's choices. What bothered me most was not the ending, but the fact that Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald... The wand is supposed to be invincible in a duel, and I can't imagine that Dumbledore would have used any sneaky means to obtain it. He would have confronted Grindy face to face right?

So...

Here's my question:

Who was master of the wand before Grindelwald?

Gregorovitch? Maybe.
But if either way, how did Grindelwald achieve the wands allegiance? He stole it. He didn't defeat Gregorovitch. He snuck in through the window and took it, so he was never truly the master of it. In fact, Grindelwald wasn't lying to Voldemort when he said, "I never had it." In truth, he didn't. He never had it's allegiance.

So this would explain how Dumbledore could defeat him, which is good, since I couldn't figure out how the invincible wand could lose, no matter how positively amazing Dumbledore's skills could be...

But then...

If Grindelwald wasn't its master, than how could Dumbledore have gained its allegiance? He never defeated the wand's true master. And therefore should not have had the power of the wand at all. It should have been a regular wand to him, much like it was to Voldemort...

This is where JKR was a genius, because she left herself an easy explanation to this paradox. The wand simply "chose" to ally itself with Dumbledore at that point. "The wand chooses the wizard."

So I believe that the allegiance shift must be based more on the method to which it is obtained, and not so much the person it is obtained from. Since Dumbledore obtained it from someone who was not the master of the wand, he could still become its master...

It would seem that the act of disarming is the most effective way of achieving allegiance, whether magically or not (as in Harry's case with Draco).

No matter what, I still can't see Grindelwald's act of sneaky theft being a true mastery.

Somewhat rambling, but I wanted to get some opinions. Does anyone else see the paradox?

[Witherwings]

No matter what, I still can't see Grindelwald's act of sneaky theft being a true mastery.

Somewhat rambling, but I wanted to get some opinions. Does anyone else see the paradox?

I took Grindelwald's theft and the fact that he said that to mean he never was truly the master. And, as skilled as DD was, I don't believe he ever would have defeated Grindelwald if the latter did have the wand at full power. I also believe that through DD's defeat of Grindelwald, he did become the wand's true master because he defeated the one who possessed the wand, whether the wand was truly his or not. I think the wand choosing is also important. I don't think DD would have had to defeat Gregortovitch to win the allegiance of the wand - the allegiance would have switched once DD defeated Grindelwald who had possession of the wand (though not mastery). However, remember that we don't know how Gregortovitch got possession of the wand and therefore he might not have been true master either (I mean, why would he brag that he possessed the elder wand if he knew its bloody history and if the wand worked to full power for him?) which means DD becomes true master through the action of defeating the wand's possessor (or because somewhere along the line DD might have defeated the wand's true master).

However, she also provided another loophole. Draco disarms DD, but then never takes the wand or knows it's his. Harry wrestles Draco and wins the allegiance of the elder wand and Draco's own wand. However, the wand comes to be possessed to by Voldemort who kills three people to use the wand and, in a cowardly way, defaces DD's tomb (the same act as Grindelwald's theft though on a grander scale). He then kills Snape to take control of the wand, threatens to kill Draco, and then uses the wand against Harry, it's true master. However, just because Harry becomes the wand's true master, we never know if it would work at full power for the possessor of the wand for a) Draco never used it, b ) Voldemort never gets to see it in full action, and c) Harry returns the wand to DD's tomb without ever using it.

Therefore the only way we know that Harry is the wand's rightful master is that it doesn't kill Harry. Well, just because it doesn't kill Harry, it doesn't mean the Elder Wand works at full power (though it is the only wand able to fix his own). Of course, we can say we know it recognizes DD as the true master because DD does great things with the wand, but he's also a highly skilled wizard who did great things with a wand before he even left school (according to Marchbanks in book five). Certainly he didn't have the elder wand when he was at school.

So, a paradox, yes, but one with two (if not more) possible loopholes.

This post has been edited by Witherwings: Aug 17 2007, 11:02 AM

[baty4potter]

Perseus, how come you always write something so insightful when I'm so tired, and can't think enough to respond. ;~) Hopefully I will remember and give you my thoughts another day.

Thanks for the great post!

[Nossist]

What I dont see is, if DD was he true master of the eldar wand, the unbeatable eldar wand, why didnt he simple beat V when DD was duelling him, maybe not kill but incapacitate V so that he was defeated and could no longer fight, I mean, DD never killed Grindelwald but he did defeat him, why couldnt he do the same thing with V if he was in possession of the eldar wand?

Another thing that seems to bother me, how would the wand have known that Harry disarmed Draco? it wasnt there at the time and looking at some of the other people that obtained the wand, the wand was always there to witness its new master obtaining it, this wasnt the case with harry. Or was it some sort of magic where the wand could tell that Draco was disarmed without having to be there?
I believe the wand has a mind of its own and in that way it acknowledged the fact that DD was great and that he had great powers and so the wand chose him.

EDIT: Maybe the wand doesnt need to be disarmed from the last person to be taken. When I read the book for the second time I though the reason Grindelwald stuns Gregorovitch is because then the wand would acknowledge that Grindewald had defeated the last owner, whether or not it was a proper duel or not.

This post has been edited by Nossist: Aug 17 2007, 07:36 PM

[Witherwings]

What I dont see is, if DD was he true master of the eldar wand, the unbeatable eldar wand, why didnt he simple beat V when DD was duelling him, maybe not kill but incapacitate V so that he was defeated and could no longer fight, I mean, DD never killed Grindelwald but he did defeat him, why couldnt he do the same thing with V if he was in possession of the eldar wand?

Perhaps, as we're discussing here, DD was never truly the master of the elder wand but just a talented and powerful wizard. However, he is also likely the owner of the wand as he defeated Grindelwald.

Another thing that seems to bother me, how would the wand have known that Harry disarmed Draco? it wasnt there at the time and looking at some of the other people that obtained the wand, the wand was always there to witness its new master obtaining it, this wasnt the case with harry. Or was it some sort of magic where the wand could tell that Draco was disarmed without having to be there?

The wand doesn't need to be present to know that it's allegiances have switched. In Ollivander's description, he just indicates that one wizard must defeat the other and take possession of the wand.

I believe the wand has a mind of its own and in that way it acknowledged the fact that DD was great and that he had great powers and so the wand chose him.

This would agree with what Ollivander says all the way back in book one. The wand chooses the wizard.

EDIT: Maybe the wand doesnt need to be disarmed from the last person to be taken. When I read the book for the second time I though the reason Grindelwald stuns Gregorovitch is because then the wand would acknowledge that Grindewald had defeated the last owner, whether or not it was a proper duel or not.

First, yes, the wizard doesn't need to be disarmed, just defeated. Ah, yes, you made me re-read that particular scene. Grindelwald does steal the wand from Gregorovitch and uses his own wand to stun Gregorovitch. Therefore, he does become the master of the elder wand.

"Gregorovitch burst into the room at the end of the passage and his lantern illuminated what looked like a workshop; wood shavings and gold gleamed in the swinging pool of light, and there on the window ledge sat perched, like a giant bird, a young man with golden hair. In the split second that the lantern's light illuminated him, Harry saw the delight upon his handsome face, then the intruder shot a Stunning Spell from his wand and jumped neatly backward out of the window with a crow of laughter." (279-280)

I'm assuming here, and making a big assumption, that Rowlings use of "his" means that Grindelwald used his own wand and not the elder wand against Gregorovitch. This, then, does make Grindelwald the master until he's defeated by DD. DD then becomes the master until defeated by Malfoy. Malfoy becomes the master until defeated by Harry and then Harry is the last master of the wand (let's assume he dies a peaceful death and the wand dies with him - he deserves some peace after 18 years of torment and anguish).

This post has been edited by Witherwings: Aug 18 2007, 01:41 AM

[Nossist]

Ok so we've established (hopefully) that DD was indeed the true owner of the wand.
Now if he is couldnt he have beaten V in book 5? (I asked this before but this was before we knew DD was the true master)

Also what I really like to know is what is that spell DD uses in book 5 against V and what is its purpose? The one that emit a gong like sound when V blocked it.

This I think has alot to do with the wand, was this a sort of spell only the elder wand could produce? or maybe a spell too powerful for any other wand to produce and even attempting to produce it could destroy the wand. Has anyone asked her about the spell yet?

Oh, I'm contradicting myself a bit here, but doesn't V only learn about, or only go after the elder wand in book 7? If he does indeed only learn about the elder wand in book 7 (actually maybe book 6 because thats when he kidnaps Ollivander for information on wands) then how would he know (EDIT: He asks DD why he doesnt seek to kill him, where DD replys taking V's life would not satisfy him) about the spell DD uses if indeed the spell is only available with the elder wand. I'm guessing anyone could use this spell in that case.

This post has been edited by Nossist: Aug 18 2007, 03:52 AM

[Perseus_Evans]

Ah the stunning of Gregorovitch... That was a factor I'd forgotten. And that would explain as well the look of delight. Grindelwald having been a Hallows quester, would know the way that the wand must be won, so knowing the opportunity to stun Gregorovitch was there was probably exactly why he was waiting on the window sill. Ready to go as soon as the bit of magic was done, so I'm quite sure it was his own wand that he used to stun Gregorovitch...

In the duel with Voldemort at the Ministry... Two things. First, he'd already surmised that Nagini was a horcrux ("Naturally, but in essence divided...") so he know that taking Voldy's life at that point wasn't possible, Elder wand or not. His comment about not being satisfied was simply that he knew that he would have to destroy the piece of his soul that were scattered about as well. Besides, the wand is unbeatable in theory, but that doesn't mean it always wins... There's the possibility of a draw as was the case here. Second, Voldy took possession of Harry, changing the playing field considerably. And I don't think there are specific Elder Wand spells as much as that the wand makes other spells much more powerful (i.e. repairing a broken Holly and Phoenix feather wand...) Dumbledore knows many many spells that Harry's never seen.... The man is 150 after all... We didn't see or hear of fiendfyre until the last and most convenient moment...

[Witherwings]

This I think has alot to do with the wand, was this a sort of spell only the elder wand could produce? or maybe a spell too powerful for any other wand to produce and even attempting to produce it could destroy the wand. Has anyone asked her about the spell yet?

Like Perseus says, I think DD was just such a powerful wizard. I think his powers might have been increased by the wand, but since DD was careful with his use of the wand, he probably used standard spells he's used most of the time in battles.

Oh, I'm contradicting myself a bit here, but doesn't V only learn about, or only go after the elder wand in book 7? If he does indeed only learn about the elder wand in book 7 (actually maybe book 6 because thats when he kidnaps Ollivander for information on wands) then how would he know (EDIT: He asks DD why he doesnt seek to kill him, where DD replys taking V's life would not satisfy him) about the spell DD uses if indeed the spell is only available with the elder wand. I'm guessing anyone could use this spell in that case.

Yes, it's probably a common spell among powerful wizards. However, Voldemort probably didn't need to know what spell DD was going to use - he just uses a magical shield to protect himself from it. Obviously he knew enough magic to create a powerful shield.