would you consider snape a bad guy? Options

[Perseus_Evans]

Baty... I wasn't going to point out your changing opinion on Snape, since I've seen you go from "He's alright, really..." to "Hate him... Hope Hagrid gets a hold of him..." to the best of all "Love him, but don't like him."

But that's my point on how effective the character was. You were supposed to lose faith in him. We all were supposed to participate in Harry and the rest's hatred of him for killing DD.

The amazing thing is that every book had the "reread" factor. What I mean is that the second time around you'd see all the little things you missed, and think... "I should have known..." I.E. Moody and the polyjuice potion... Lupin as a werewolf...

But with Snape, she achieved that feeling across the series. Upon my reread, I saw Snape in a different light. Frankly I started to see his point of view of Harry. Here's a kid who represents the greatest mistake of his life. Of course he's going to have trouble keeping perspective, but at the end of the day, he still kept his word and protected him, despite the similarity in look to his arch enemy, the man who married his only true love. I saw him make his half-hearted attempts with Harry, and gave him credit for trying ("Good luck today Potter, although after a mountain troll a round of quidditch should be easy, even if it is against Slytherin")

I saw Snape's humiliation at knowing Harry had dived into his pensieve full of memories, and sympathized with his refusal to continue the occlumency fiasco.

And for some reason, the duel with McGonnagal was a huge moment for me, knowing that he was desperately trying to help, but enduring her shouts of cowardice, even though he'd refused to use any dark spells against her. I realized that moment was the ultimate cause of his death. Had he had the opportunity to talk to Harry at that moment, he might never have had to return to Voldy's side...

This post has been edited by Perseus_Evans: Mar 6 2008, 12:17 PM

[the_prisoner_of_...]

I looked up the requirements for a character to be considered a tragic hero/character. So, using what I came across on Wikipedia, I thought I would see if Snape meets the criteria.

Or perhaps even an anti-hero.

Characteristics in protagonists that merit such a label can include, but are not limited to:
imperfections that separate them from typically "heroic" characters (selfishness, ignorance, bigotry, etc.);

The way he treats Neville, favouratism, cruelty.

lack of positive qualities such as "courage, physical prowess, and fortitude," and "generally feel helpless in a world over which they have no control";[1]

Well at least the helpless bit. I think Snape really was helpless, betray Voldemort risk certain death, betray the Order risk certain death

qualities normally belonging to villains (amorality, greed, violent tendencies, etc.) that may be tempered with more human, identifiable traits (confusion, self-hatred, etc.);

Well I guess one could argue that he lives a life of lies. Secrecy etc

noble motives pursued by bending or breaking the law in the belief that "the ends justify the means."

Definatly! Killing Dumbledore saved Draco from doing it etc

Only problem is he's not the Protagonist.

[baty4potter]

Baty... I wasn't going to point out your changing opinion on Snape, since I've seen you go from "He's alright, really..." to "Hate him... Hope Hagrid gets a hold of him..." to the best of all "Love him, but don't like him."

But that's my point on how effective the character was. You were supposed to lose faith in him. We all were supposed to participate in Harry and the rest's hatred of him for killing DD.

The amazing thing is that every book had the "reread" factor. What I mean is that the second time around you'd see all the little things you missed, and think... "I should have known..." I.E. Moody and the polyjuice potion... Lupin as a werewolf...

But with Snape, she achieved that feeling across the series. Upon my reread, I saw Snape in a different light. Frankly I started to see his point of view of Harry. Here's a kid who represents the greatest mistake of his life. Of course he's going to have trouble keeping perspective, but at the end of the day, he still kept his word and protected him, despite the similarity in look to his arch enemy, the man who married his only true love. I saw him make his half-hearted attempts with Harry, and gave him credit for trying ("Good luck today Potter, although after a mountain troll a round of quidditch should be easy, even if it is against Slytherin")

I saw Snape's humiliation at knowing Harry had dived into his pensieve full of memories, and sympathized with his refusal to continue the occlumency fiasco.

And for some reason, the duel with McGonnagal was a huge moment for me, knowing that he was desperately trying to help, but enduring her shouts of cowardice, even though he'd refused to use any dark spells against her. I realized that moment was the ultimate cause of his death. Had he had the opportunity to talk to Harry at that moment, he might never have had to return to Voldy's side...

I totally agree and would not ever deny my flip flop of Snape. I always loved the character, but didn't like Snape as a person no matter what the end result. I could see his resentment of Harry and could even see him treating him horrible, but that still didn't excuse his actions towards other students.

He was a sad character, whose resentment of the world led him to act the way he did. He really needed counseling. lol

[Grubbly-Plank]

He really needed counseling. lol

I must say Baty that that statement has to be a classic!! I cried from laughing so much!! 'Snape needs counselling' Brilliant, brilliant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) .

[Dijares]

This has most definitely become a very interesting topic...

In my heart, I've always tried to feel that Snape wasn't all bad.

Regarding him becoming a gangster, he was most open to this (but not of his own doing).

Many kids who end up in gangs are those who don't really have the attention/love from their parents. Therefore, the gangs bring them in because they know the kid is vulnerable. The gang becomes the family the kid never had. They get the attention and praise that the kid craves.

We all saw that Snape did not get the love and attention he should have. Imagine what kind of person he could have become if he'd been brought up with Mrs. Weasley as his mother. Therefore, he went to those that would give him some type of attention. I think he did get some attention from Lilly, but it just wasn't enough. She seemed to keep him at arm's length. And when she ended up with the those who treated him badly, it must have hurt him deeply. He came from a very dysfunctional family who didn't know how to give affection, so he had no example to learn from. Dumbledore, of course, knew this, and gave Snape much praise and affection; this is something Snape would not have received from Voldemort, and is probably another reason that Snape would not go to him.

Such a lonely, isolated, and sad child he was. And the one love he had went to someone he detested and was killed by the person he worked for with his inadvertent help. His self-loathing must have been substantial. This self-hatred was, I believe, very much directed at Harry. Harry, of course, was the representation of Snape's largest mistake. Each time, I imagine, he looked at Harry, the loathing towards himself must have grown and grown.

Most definitely the tragic hero personified.

[Grubbly-Plank]

I think that Snapes attitude towards Ron, Hermione & Neville was totally out of order. It seems that they were treated in that way simply 'by association' (with Harry). His attitude towards Harry in the beginning was, maybe, understandable, he did after all look so much like his father, a face he hated. But as time went on I don't think Snape can be blamed that much for how he felt towards Harry, because at this point Harry was not only giving him a load of back chat but his attitude toward him was just as arrogant and overbearing as his fathers had been and I think that that made matters much worse. If Harry had behaved with Snape the way he behaved with other teachers maybe Snape would have come to see more of Lily in him and less of James and their relationship could have been a little more 'respectful' towards each other. It's a shame really because Snape could have taught Harry so much, he was an incredibly powerful wizard. Good or bad? Maybe, misunderstood, insecure, heartbroken and unloved?

[baty4potter]

He was a sad character, whose resentment of the world led him to act the way he did. He really needed counseling. lol

I must say Baty that that statement has to be a classic!! I cried from laughing so much!! 'Snape needs counselling' Brilliant, brilliant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) .

Why thank you, I thought it was pretty good myself. lol

[Perseus_Evans]

I can forgive Snape's treatment of Neville, but only so far as I can forgive him for his treatment of Harry.

Remember that Neville was the other possible subject of the prophecy, and Snape knows that if Neville had be Voldy's choice, Lily would still be alive (or at least not killed that way).

And on the "guilty-by-association" subject, I think that he saw anyone who was associated with Harry as another group of Marauders. Neville probably reminded Snape a bit of Wormtail, so that may have added to his disdain.

As Dij says (and Dumbledore too...) people are a product of what they have experienced, but Snape's choice to rise above those limitations is a brave and heroic one. Yes Dumbledore, you sort too early...

That first interaction with Snape in the first potions lesson, Harry did show a streak of arrogance. True Snape was picking on him, but Harry chose to talk back and fell into Snape's own self-fulfilling prophecy. I think for Snape, he was happier/found it easier finding something of James to hate than to feel the pain of seeing Lily in Harry.

I also go back to one of my theories on Harry being a natural Legillimens (thanks to Voldy's soul fragment) as a reason he hated Snape. Snape kept a closed mind via Occlumency and Harry, naturally being able to feel the motivations of those around him (every time I reread the series, I've noticed more and more occasions where Harry has an uncanny ability to read people's real motivations) in most cases, felt that his inability to perceive Snape meant that Snape was hiding something. Harry always assumed it to be something malicious, but Snape was trying to hide his feelings for Lily.

So to sum up... Snape needs therapy Baty. Call St Mungo's!

[baty4potter]

So to sum up... Snape needs therapy Baty. Call St Mungo's!

They have a room ready and waiting for him!

[Kiara]

SPOILERS AHEAD, READ AT YOUR OWN RISK
Yes, definitely! He's not just BAD, he's EVIL! He was one of my least favorite characters in the whole series, I couldn't STAND him. I mean, when I read The Prince's Tale, I felt like putting my arms around him, he made me so sad, but then I remembered all the disgusting stuff he's done his whole life, and putting all the psychological BS aside (child abuse, social unacceptance, etc), everyone falls in love, so just because he fell for Lily doesn't mean he's a saint all of a sudden. People do crazy things for love - trust me.
Kiara.

[Kane]

The thing about Snape, was that all the way through the series, Snape was a "bad guy". I hated him, as through the novel, I placed myself in Harry's shoes and I thought he was horrible... And when we thought he was on Voldemorts side, I despised him, and so wish'd Harry could get a curse in at him, at the fight they had in THBP.

To suddenly have him turn good, is out of the ordinary, though I had my theories...I did start to like Snape near the end of DH, for obviouse reasons, but all the way through the books, he made Harrys life heck.

So, to conclude, I'm half and half!

[the_prisoner_of_...]

See my problem is it was such an obvious choice to make Snape 'good'. All through the books it was "Dumbledore knows something we don't but we have to trust him". So...I decided rather then term him good or evil, I gave him his own definition. And that is that Snape does whatever is best for Snape.

I think for Snape, he was happier/found it easier finding something of James to hate than to feel the pain of seeing Lily in Harry.

Definatly true. And again it was what was best for Snape. You know he could have seen Lilly in Harry and treated Harry with some respect or kindness. But no it was easier for Snape to treat him horribly.

[wizard/vampire]

Well before I read the Deathly Hallows i hated Snape with all my might...
but then i found out he was loyal all along i thought he was very brave.
the reason why snape was rude to harry because of james potter