Hi everyone... I've got so many different theories about why Harry can see into Voldy's emotions... speaks Parseltongue... is so powerful to be able to instinctually cast spells without using a wand (Lumos in Dudley Demented for example)...

We've heard from Dumbledore that Voldy unintentionally gave Harry powers, but we know there's more to it... DD hasn't exactly got a history of being up front with Harry, despite his claims to the contrary...

So what do you think it is really?

I voted for it being part of the old magic. Lemme see if I can explain it the way I feel it to be. When Lily sacrificed her life out of love for Harry, it was for the love of her son. Harry's innate ability is being able to love. I think that knowing that his mother died out of love for him enables him to truly understand and really feel the love he does carry within himself and is going to be able to utilize that love when the time comes to truly vanquish V. So it isn't really because of the old magic, but from the love that was involved in that magic.

Did I make any sense?

I voted for Voldemort's powers had to go somewhere.

In my opinion when Voldemort tried to curse Harry, his powers just simply entered Harry. The prophecy states "He will mark him as his equal." Voldemort's powers were diminished because he gave his powers to Harry, leaving him almost powerless. I think if not for the horcruxes Voldemort made, he would have been finished off completly. They were they only thing that kept him alive.

I voted for Voldemort's powers had to go somewhere... because i think that Lilys chamr backfired and the powers went into Harry.

I think it had to do with the "ole magic". Lily loved Harry a lot, so that's why Harry is so well protected, but I don't see how this connects with how V gave his powers to Harry.

Come on its obviously the first one. The laws of physics make it so obvious. Magic doesn't dissappear, it is always there in some form or another. So it must have gone to him.

Yes... obviously the laws of physics apply to the magical world...

Obviously a rat changing into a man and back again doesn't violate any conservation of matter law or anything...

Obviously wingardium leviosa is able to utilitze anti-gravition particles in levitating objects...

Obliviously you posted your comment... :)

I voted for "V used Harry's blood to revive himself." It seems to me that because some of Harry's blood is flowing through V, they have to be connected.

I think that V's powers had to go somewhere and V using H's blood and H's mom's powers are still with him

I voted for more than one of the above because, I believe that Voldemort's powers did have to go somewhere, and also I think they are connected when Voldemort used Harry's blood in that potion of his to regain human form.

"Voldemort's powers had to go somewhere..."

I don't think Voldemort's powers went anywhere though. They stayed embodied in Voldemort, even though he became weakened in form and couldn't use them appropriately.

"Harry is a Horcrux" and "Harry's scar is a Horcrux"

Why would he try to kill Harry if he's (or his scar) a horcrux? Voldemort would want to keep all seven parts of his soul alive which is why he (as his seventh part) fought to keep himself alive by feeding off the unicorns. Given everything DD says about Voldemort and his vanity and attempts at immortality, he wouldn't risk losing a part of his soul.

"Part of the "Old magic" that Lily protected him with"

I don't think he's connected to Harry by this "old magic". In fact, he was repulsed by the "old magic" until he was "reborn".

"Lily cast a charm spell on Voldemort that made his powers transferable"

I don't think Lily had any time to do this. Also, as Harry's mother, why would she want dark magic transformed to her son?

"Harry is Voldemort reborn"

No, he's the child of James and Lily - Voldemort has no child.

Harry is just very powerful and used magic even as a baby

I wouldn't be surprised if Rowling did this, but this doesn't explain how Harry is connected to Voldemort. Also, I'm not sure he could use power as a baby - DD has repeatedly said it was Lily's love that protected her child, not anything Harry did.

"Voldemort used Harry's blood to revive himself "

Well, we know this much is true. He did use his blood in book four to revive himself. However, they were connected even before he revived himself as we saw earlier in book four.

I couldn't agree with you more. All the theories of Harry being a horcrux just doesn't make since. I think I'd actually be disappointed if he was a horcrux. Now I can see Harry's scar disappearing after Voldemort is dead, but not because it is a horcrux.

It's a poll... I was giving people options, not making assertions... sheesh. I couldn't possibly believe ALL of them to be true since some are in direct conflict with others...

However, I do believe the scar is a horcrux, and Voldy didn't realize he'd lost a piece of his soul that night. It certainly had been split from the murders of James and Lily. I think the sucking sound that accompanies the avada kedavra is a very big clue... and that when the curse failed, a piece of Voldy's frayed soul was sucked into Harry, leaving the scar.... But being unaware of this factor, he can continue to try and kill Harry...

But then again, maybe he DOES know, and that's why he's so keen to make sure he's the one to kill Harry. Dumbledore did say something about the disadvantage of a living horcrux is it's difficult to control... He might want to kill Harry to retain that particular fragment.

Ask yourself these questions though, before you argue: Why did Voldy choose to touch the scar at the end of GOF? Was it because he knew exactly what it was and how touching it would cause Harry pain?

It's obviously the blood thing, I mean, Voldemort is literally made of Harry's blood...

Hmmmm. I know he touched the scar in the movie, but in the book it seems that he touched his cheek. Though it isn't exact it is close enough to believe so.

I do believe he knew touching Harry would cause him pain though. He was the one in pain as well as Quirrell before, so being reborn it would make sense for Harry to experience the pain this time. When he was the weaker of the two, he experienced it. But after becoming the more powerful of the two, Harry got to experience it.

I still believe that in order to make a Horcrux you need to say an incantation just as Slughorn said. But I totally understand why there are those who believe that there is a Horcrux in/on Harry. It explains the connection far better than there being "a bond" between the two.

Dumbledore did suggest that baby Harry's death would be "significant" to Voldy, had he succeeded. I think he intended to make a Horcrux that night, and I've said before that I think the incantation for a Horcrux may well be something you have to say BEFORE the splitting of the soul (via a murder). I imagine it's to do with the idea of pre-meditated murder being worse than spur of the moment killings...

My theory boils down to this... Voldy is about to kill Harry, so he casts the Horcrux charm over himself to capture/extract the split piece of his soul. He's ready now to make the 7th Horcrux, but in his excitement didn't consider the old magic that Lily's protection has created. His spell backfires... and the piece of his soul is left behind as his body is destroyed. His self-soul is forced to flee and that last piece of his soul is left behind. This is where I'm unsure about the possibilities, but I believe it may have HAD to be absorbed into Harry.

We'll know in 3 months.

Well, wouldn't DD have said this to Harry though? The scar is a result of being touched by a curse - this has been recurring since Book One. As for the parts of the soul, there are seven parts, right? First was in the diary, second was the ring, third is the locket, fourth is the badger, fifth is something of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's (but not Gryffindor's, according to DD, because the only known object of Gryffindor's is the sword in DD's office), and sixth is believed to be Nagini. The seventh piece of the soul resides in Voldemort's body. Unless Nagini isn't the horcrux and Harry is, which is probably unlikely as DD told Harry, the killing of the old muggle would have allowed him to fragment the remaining part of the soul. DD's been known to make mistakes, but with the Horcrux, that might be too big of a mistake. Also, I think DD would have given Harry this knowledge - he wants Harry to survive - I don't think it's something he would have held back.

I think there might be some essence that LV left behind the night he came to murder Harry; however, I don't think it's necessarily a horcrux.

"Ask yourself these questions though, before you argue: Why did Voldy choose to touch the scar at the end of GOF? Was it because he knew exactly what it was and how touching it would cause Harry pain?"

"'. . . I could not touch the boy.'/Voldemort raised one of his long white fingers and put it very close to Harry's cheek./'His mother. . . but no matter I can touch him now.'/Harry felt the cold tip of the long white finger touch him, and he thought his head would burst in pain.'" - GoF, 652-653

Never touched Harry's scar - Rowling would have directly stated if it was the scar. As for the bursting pain in his head, he always feels a bursting pain in his head, particularly his scar, when around LV or feeling LV's emotions. Doesn't make him a horcrux though.

Okay, I think that Harry is definitely not a Horcrux. I think they are connected because of the night when V tried to kill Harry. They have the same abilities, therefore they have some of the same traits. Also, I think that V is a very proud man and that is why he wanted to show off that he could finally touch harry.

The shared abilities come from the fact that LV marked Harry as his equal with powers he knows not. That's from the prophecy. He marked him as his equal by going to kill him, not by turning him into a horcrux though. )

No... He "marked him as an equal" by accidentally making his scar a horcrux (not Harry... please READ an argument before refuting it) and putting a piece of his soul into it. The "mark" is an equal, since it counts as much as the piece of soul that is still Voldy. And Harry "shall have powers the Dark lord knows not"... They're not necessarily related to the mark. DD said it was simply the power to love. When you've read through the series two or three more times, we'll have a real chat.

And for the record, he didn't make Nagini a horcrux until he found out the diary had been destroyed (I'd say shortly before Christmas during OotP). He needed to get the number back to a nice powerful seven.

1. Voldy
2. Harry's scar (accidentally created by a spell gone awry, but still a fragment of Voldy's soul)
3. The cup
4. The locket
5. The ring
6. Something of Gryffindor's or Ravenclaws (DD said the sword was the only "known" artifact)
7. Nagini (to replace the diary)

Capice?

And if you seriously think that DD would EVER tell Harry that he has a horcrux in his head... you really don't understand DD's motivation...

EVERYTHING DD has done has been to correct the greatest regret of his life. From the moment he left Harry on the Dursley's doorstep, he was only telling Harry what he "NEEDS TO KNOW!" He doesn't need to know that his scar is a Horcrux, because Voldy would potentially be able to find it out as well. They're connected... Harry is essentially the best spy Voldy has... Why???

Because when your scar is a horcrux, you have a fundamental connection to the source of the soul fragment. Voldy can actively use the scar to see through Harry's eyes... DD knew it... Snape knows it, which is one of the reasons he absolutely HAD to treat Harry like scum (to maintain cover)... I'm pretty sure most of the Order knows it too (At least Sirius and Lupin). Read the series again, and you'll see.

Okay, minus the snide comments - umm, NO - By book four, Voldemort wouldn't have known that the diary was lost and therefore wouldn't have needed to create another horcrux. Therefore your idea that Nagini replaces the diary is, umm, wrong.

The scar is not a horcrux. Plain and simple. It's a mark from being touched by magic. And, no, that's not how Voldemort marked him as his equal - he marked him as his equal by choosing Harry to begin with. Simple enough. Rowling loves Macbeth - the idea of the prophecy that Rowling believes is that if a character doesn't seek to fulfill the prophecy (or doesn't hear the prophecy) it won't be fulfilled. The fact that Voldemort went to Harry is what marked Harry as his equal - not the scar itself.

And I'm sorry, oh enlightened one who knows all of Rowling's motivations for her characters, but I do think DD would have told Harry if his scar was a horcrux because he is trying to help Harry to survive. He gave Harry the list or horcruxes to help him so that he would know which ones to seek out and destroy. I think he would've told Harry his scar was a horcrux by the time he died to help Harry finally defeat Voldemort.

Assuming, and it's a massive assumption, that Harry's scar is a horcrux that gives Voldemort insight into Harry's mind, you stated other members of the Order, or at least Sirius and Lupin, would know it. Sirius is dead - he died in book five. Maybe you need to reread the books there yourself.

Perseus and Witherwings,

I know that you both truly believe in your own opinions, but, as hard as it might be, you must respect the other person's opinion. I know it's difficult, because you really can't see how their opinion/belief would be correct, but that doesn't matter. Either I see you both get along, or you both are banned for a week.

Now, shake hands (yes, I know you hate it), apologize, and let's get on with the theories.

Cheers,
dij

I dunno Dij... This is the only time someone has actually gone toe to toe with me and not ended up sounding shrill, but instead argues well. And I don't mind being banned if need be... It will make it all the sweeter if I turn out to be correct.

Wither, again, you missed my point... But I'll try to be respectful (the "oh enlightened one" comment was pretty funny actually)

It was never established that Nagini was made a Horcrux until Harry saw the attack on Arthur through its eyes. That was in that book you said I didn't read. I believe that when Lucius revealed the fate of the Diary, which didn't occur until book 5 (the terrible beholding of the wrath and all...), he then made his faithful pet Nagini into another horcrux (the flaw in my theory is that I don't have a candidate for the significant death...).

In any case though... here's a couple more reasons I think my theory is probably correct.

DD is a smart wizard, we all agree. He's always kind of stood back and let Harry find his way, rather than tell him everything. Throughout the books he's said he'll tell Harry the truth, but it's always been riddled (forgive the pun) with half-truths.

And if DD is so smart, why didn't he account for the need for Voldy to replace the Diary when he counted up the horcruxes? Seems kind of obvious to me that Voldy would want the number of active horcruxes to be at 7... So why not mention this factor to Harry? Half-truths...

And DD's trip down pensieve memory lane in HBP suggests he understands the motivations behind Voldy's actions. I'm suggesting he held back this one piece of information, because he knew that Harry would want to destroy himself (play the hero and sacrifice himself), if he found his scar to be one of the horcruxes. He could also very easily misinterpret the meaning of the prophecy to be that the scar is what gave him power to destroy the dark lord.

Also... the structure of the series is strong. The very first thing that we hear is that the scar itself may be useful, and my gut is that it's a means by which DD could see the downfall of Voldy. The scar is critical to the plot, and we even know it's the last word of the series. DD had 11 years to ponder the possible ways that Harry would be able to defeat Voldy, knowing the prophecy. And he's a smart wizard.

One other tidbit, is that JKR was originally considering revealing that the diary was a horcrux at the end of book 2 (I do speculate on her motivation here, since her exact wording was cryptic), but felt that piece of information to be more appropriately revealed in book 6. She didn't want to have everyone aware of horcruxes as they read PoA, GoF, and OotP, because (in my not-always-so-humble opinion) she was afraid it would ruin the ending.

And hey... I'll say it. I could be wrong. But I have read the series over and over (probably a bit too many times actually). And every time through, I find more bits of evidence to support my theory. You're entitled to your opinion, but I have to keep arguing until someone gives me hard evidence that I'm wrong.

Ok Perseus, so let's say that Voldemort created another horcrux because one was destroyed, he has now divided his soul again. Yes, only seven exist, but making the *other* seventh one doesn't bring back the one that was destroyed. So in essence Voldemort still lost part of his soul, and would have split it again making him even more less then whole. Does this make sense?

Also, my question about Harry being a Horcrux... Why would Voldemort make someone a Horcrux knowing that he was going to kill him, and thus killing a part of himself? It really just doesn't add up to me. But then again you know my track record..... Dumbledore is Dead!!! :~/

Oh baty not you too??? Now I'm starting to think you're all messing with me... lol

I really don't think Harry himself is a horcrux. I believe the scar on the other hand IS.

The scar is the mark of the curse that failed, and I believe it is a distinct and separate thing from Harry.

I believe the sequence goes like this... (and yes... convoluted is a word for the theory)

1. Voldy enters the Potter house and tells James and Lily to get out of the way
2. James tells Lily to go get protect Harry, gets snuffed (Mr. Not-be-named's soul still gets split regardless of whether a Horcrux is made)
3. Lord Thingy enters Harry's bedroom and tells Lily not to be silly, but she refuses to give in, also gets snuffed. (soul splits again... still no horcrux... My point here is to show that he's never been concerned with the number of times he's frayed his soul, but only concerned with the number of vessels he's used to save a piece. Or he'd have only ever committed 6 murders)
4. With just Harry left, Voldy begins preparing the seventh horcrux (sixth object, since he's already #7, and may be found in Godric's Hollow when Harry goes to the site of his parent's deaths). The spell is not simple and needs to be in place prior to the murder to extract the split piece of soul.
5. He positions the object carefully, knowing there will only be a small window of opportunity to catch the soul fragment.
6. He points his wand and casts the Avada Kedavra on Harry
7. The old magic of Lily's sacrifice causes the curse to fail and rebound
8. Voldy's death is a violent one because of his power, and he literally implodes
9. The object is thrown out of the way and the soul fragment is sucked into the most powerful other object... Harry
10. But having been protected by Lily, the fragment is unable to embed itself completely into Harry, but breaks the skin on his forehead
11. Harry is left with a wound that will never quite heal, with a little piece of Voldy embedded in his forehead

Now there will always be the question of whether this qualifies the scar as a Horcrux or not, but if it was a piece of Voldemort's soul, then it might as well be.

As for Voldy not wanting to replace the diary, I tend to think that it would be very unlike him to be so concerned over the integrity of his soul. The guy is living a cursed life anyway... a half life... (who am I? Firenze??... sheesh) I think he would be much more concerned with the integrity of his plan to have 7 objects of power with his soul hidden within...

All down to opinion, as always...

Oh Perseus, I'm not trying to mess with you, I at one time gave it some thought. But it just doesn't add up for me. I'm getting ready to head for work, but will read your post in length when I get home.

On question, the scar... It is attached to Harry wouldn't it in essence make Harry the Horcrux? Let me think more on this... You might have a good point~~~

Real quick... the distinction to me is that a horcrux must be destroyed or torn apart to destroy the piece of soul, as was the case with Marvolo's ring and the Diary.

If Harry's scar is the horcrux, it could potentially be destroyed without making it necessary that Harry die...

However, the ring was cracked and the diary was impaled. There would be some damage to Harry if he had to destroy a possible horcrux contained in a scar on his body, perhaps not death.

Harry's tough... He's had some injuries...

Regrowing some bones... Dragon tail spikes in the shoulder... Acromatula broke his leg...

A gouge on his forehead will be easy to bear, I think, should it come to that. Besides, if I'm right, Voldy didn't add any extra protection or curses to the scar, since he didn't mean to do it. The ring was cursed and Harry only impaled the diary for the expediency of it...

I'm getting the impression Wither, from your many many posts, that you think Harry is frail and a strong wind will blow him over. I personally think it's a result of watching the somewhat-unimpressive Daniel Radcliffe portray him.

He's been in two major battles with groups of Death Eaters and come out on top. He's shown impressive skill in defense against the dark arts... The fact is, he's got courage and experience that no other wizard has... And fear has always been Voldy's greatest weapon, hasn't it?

I don't think he's weak. I don't think he's near where his father and mother were as students, but then they had knowledge of things when he was younger. I think he's pretty strong and I think Daniel Radcliffe does a pretty decent job portraying him. I just think the scar, if a horcrux, would damage Harry if it had to be destroyed - that's not saying he's weak. I definitely think Ron is weak, but not Harry.

BTW, could the award Riddle received (Award in recognition of special services to the school mentioned in book 2) be a horcrux? Rowling did say that she waited until book 6 to discuss horcruxes, a topic that appears in book 2 but she wasn't ready to develop.

Of which DD was wrong. He had something else of Gryffindor's sitting right behind him in his office, the Sorting Hat.



Perseus, you're missing V himself. He must be counted since he has a piece of his soul in his body. Unless he doesn't? But is that possible?

I sounded shrill! I'm truly hurt!



Backed by DD. He said that V's killed enough to create an army of Inferi. So no, V has never been concerned with how many times he's split his soul, only how many things contain pieces of it.



That's been a thought of mine for a very long time.

But didn't the hat belong to all four original founders and not just Gryffindor?



I don't think it is. I think Voldemort only would have split his soul into seven parts.



I think Dumbledore includes the orders Voldemort gave to others here. Also, we know he's killed more than seven times - Riddle, Riddle's father and mother, Harry's mother and father, Bertha Jorkins, the old man, Amelia Bones (assumed), Moaning Myrtle, and who knows how many others. However, not every time that he killed did he split his soul to create a horcrux - he only did that for important murders.




Cool. It makes sense that, if he returned to Hogwarts, he would have turned his own award into a horcrux. Certainly keeps with his narcissistic ideas.

Nope. It was Gryffindor's. Read the Sorting Hat's song in GOF. I don't have time to type it out.



I don't. V is evil. He killed as much as he wanted. And as you said, he's killed more than seven times.



You're right. He did not only split his soul to make Horcruxes. He split it everytime he murdered somebody. He created the Horcruxes from pieces of his soul when he felt like doing so.

I just re-read HBP, and Dumbledore says somewhere theat Voldemort is definetley one of the seven.

Well you beat me to the punch, I just read that a couple of weeks ago myself, and you are very correct. Voldemort is the seventh, and so I am *assuming* that since this is the case if Harry would destroy the six horcruxes then Voldemort would be left in a very sad state. So.... Would it be necessary to kill Voldemort or just kill him with loving and kindness?

Just a small thing no one can say Harry IS or ISN'T a horcrux. Only JKR knows with certainty, no matter how much faith we each have in our opinions (hehe I'm a sucker for the way things are phrased so feel free to ignore me).

Personally I have to say I don't think Harry or his scar is a horcrux, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Firstly, I believe the process of making a horcrux is much to complex to just happen by accident and I'm pretty sure Slughorn said it was a spell, with Voldy didn't have time to perform. I mean...he had no time to do anything. But I'll write more when I have the time.

I also follow the Special Services Trophy idea. It seems so logical and when I read Dumbledore say about "trophies" it clicked...well even though he wasnt talking about actual trophies. But I mean it was a very evil act, a trophy for frameing Hagrid.

I did list him as number 1... numero uno... the cheese...

I just called him by his pet name "Voldy"

1. Voldy
2. Harry's scar (accidentally created by a spell gone awry, but still a fragment of Voldy's soul)
3. The cup
4. The locket
5. The ring
6. Something of Gryffindor's or Ravenclaws (DD said the sword was the only "known" artifact)
7. Nagini (to replace the diary)

So my question to all remains... Do you agree that it's in Voldy's nature to leave the diary unreplaced? And to those who don't believe Harry's scar or himself is a horcrux... Did DD miscount, or does he think Voldy would not wish to replace it?

I don't think that Voldemort would replace the diary. I can't give a good reason why except that maybe he decided what he had was enough. No I still don't think Harry's scar is a horcrux, but like I've said before, Perseus, I've been wrong before, and if you are right I will sing praises to you!! Tis true I promise. :~)

I think you're right about not replacing the diary. According to Dumbledore, he wouldn't have found out about the diary until book five. However, I think the visual psychic connection (seeing, not just feeling) between Harry and Voldemort is not the horcrux connection, but rather the blood used to reawaken Voldemort. I think the fact that Voldemort has Harry's blood in him is going to be significant at the end - after all, when Harry tells DD about the incident of the reincarnation, he perceives that Dumbledore smiles but then feels he might have imagined it. I think this is going to be how Harry destroys Voldemort at the end.

LOL! Boy did I miss that one while reading! Sorry!



I think that would have to depend on how we each interpret V. To me, I would say yes, only because in my opinion V would count that as another Horcrux, thus taking him past the magical number of seven. True, he would have seven active Horcruxes, but he would still technically have put the number at eight.

Using your theory of it accidentally happening, I don't think it would be a matter of miscounting, but of missing Harry and using Nagini instead as the final one.



True. I'll explain my "but" below......

By my own interpretation of the way it works, V has split his soul numerous times with all the murders he has committed. If there were no Horcruxes at all and he'd committed murder 100 times, he would have 101 pieces of soul in his body. He'd have the whole soul inside him, but it would be broken. So he makes 6 Horcruxes and counts himself as one. 6 objects have pieces of soul inside them, leaving him as the seventh Horcrux with 95 pieces of his broken soul inside his being. He is free to make those Horcruxes at any time he feels and reserves it specially for when he murders a person with some significance, in his mind, using the spell that we know he must perform to make a Horcrux. (This would be easier if I could remember all the significant deaths.)

Now, DD did say that Harry's death would have been significant. But, I think DD forgot someone, Neville. V did choose to go to the Potters' first, but there was still one other on his hit list. I believe that after V finished off both those that were his potential downfall, that then he would have made his Horcrux. Now, if it was a spell that you would say shortly before or after killing someone, V should not have been saying it around Harry's death, but rather when he was finished with both the boys. Does that make sense? I mean, V knew that there were two potential candidates, yet he chose to attack the half-blood first and met his downfall there, not getting the chance to get rid of Neville. So, if you have to say it around the time of the death, then he shouldn't have been saying it when he tried to kill Harry at all. So I still believe that a Horcrux can be made at any time, as long as you have broken your soul at least once.

As for my "but", I can now say that Nagini could have been made a Horcrux at any time and that it is quite possible, given that Harry slipped through his fingers in the graveyard, V forwent his significant death feelings and decided it was time to make his final Horcrux to hurry up and bring his total to seven.



I also believe this. It goes back to my thoughts about whether Harry will be able to destroy V from the inside out using his blood and the love that is inside him inside the "love room" to somehow project his feelings of love for others into V.

Personally I think that DD's look of triumph was that the connection would now go two ways, because of Harry's blood... and the feeling of love... unbearable to Voldy... will be Harry's best defense against Voldy's control over the connection, as we saw at the end of OotP...

However, the psychic connection did exist before the graveyard. Harry's dream of Frank Bryce's death was long before Voldy's theft of Harry's blood. Not too mention the Parseltongue factor and the scar pain during the first two books... To say that the connection didn't exist is wrong...

Though I grant you that the connection was strengthened, but as I said above, it may have been a whole different type of connection created by the blood...

The other point I need to make again is that Voldy had plenty of time after killing Lily to prepare for the creation of a Horcrux, and I stand by my theory that the preparation of spell must precede the murder...

One thing I really like about you Perseus is that you stand by your theories, and I admire that. Ask WWW about my still standing by that Dumbledore isn't dead. Yes, I know, JK did say he was dead, but as a die hard I'm waiting until the fat lady sings in the last book. To me there is still hope. ROFL!!!

How about a change of direction and question who Voldemort killed to make each horcrux. According to Dumbledore, every horcrux is made after a significant murder. He killed Myrtle and made the one in the diary - significant because it was the first murder. He killed the Riddles and made the one out of Morfin's ring - significant because they were his father and grandparents. We assume he made the one in Nagini after killing the muggle caretaker (not a significant death, but Dumbledore thinks this is a last move). Hepzibah probably made the murder for the locket or the cup (significant because she was the decendent of Hufflepuff). Who did he kill for the other two horcruxes (the item of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's and the locket or cup)?

Perseus, I have a question for you. If the Horcrux incantation must be said before the murder is committed, and that person doesn't die, do you still believe that there is a piece of soul that has broken and can be encased? Forgive me, I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from a bit better. But from what I gather so far, if there is no murder committed, then the soul should not have split and there should be no piece of soul to encase in a Horcrux.



Funny, I know it's been a couple weeks since my last visit, but sometime around when you brought this up I had done just that. So, let's see who he's murdered, shall we?

Definites:

James Potter
Lily Potter
Frank Bryce
Tom Riddle Sr.
Tom's Grandfather
Tom's Grandmother
Bertha Jorkins

Most Likelies:

Amelia Bones
Regulus Black

Questionables:

Moaning Myrtle
Professor Quirrell
Morfin
Hepzibah Smith

Probably Not's:

Emmeline Vance
Broderick Bode
Igor Karkaroff
Mrs. Abbott (Hannah's Mother)

And these are just the ones we know. Imagine how many more there are in the time periods when we have no idea who and how many he might've killed. Which is why I still believe that a Horcrux can be made at any time and place so long as you have already split your soul and have a piece to encase.

As for linking them to their appropriate Horcruxes, I can't do it properly without taking names from the lists other than "definites." I just haven't got the time to go through the timeline of events. So please, everybody, be my guest.....

I definitely do not think that Harry is a Horcrux. I believe that they are "connected" by their abilities. The only reason why V wanted to kill Harry is not because he wanted to make a Horcrux, but just because he wanted to get him out of the way.

I believe that the preparation is primarily done to the vessel that is to become the horcrux. And that, under normal circumstances, a failed murder wouldn't create a Horcrux at all.

But in this case, Voldemort had so recently committed two murders (James and Lily), that his soul was already in a fragmented state (though we've never had an adequete description of how the split soul behaves over the long term).

So I'm saying that when the curse rebounded on him, Voldy's fragmented soul was reduced to bits and one of those bits impacted into Harry's forehead. The house blew up after all... Whether this was somehow because of Lily's protection or random... who knows?

But no matter what, the prophecy specifies the mark as something that defines Harry as an equal. What's more equal than having a equal share of Voldy's soul to tote around?

All in all, I may be very wrong, but I've heard few other viable theories for what exactly happened on that Halloween night...

Imagine having a part of V's soul in your forehead!(or scar)I stand by what I said before. I don't think a soul just escapes(better word?) into a foreign object. I think that Harry is considered V's equal because he's proved that he could beat him.

I don't think the questionables are really questionables: I think he did murder Hepzibah and then blamed that murder on her house elf. I don't think he killed Quirrell - Quirrell died in his battle with Harry. He didn't kill Morfin - Morfin died in prison in Azkaban. Of course his actions resulted in his death and then Hepzibah's house elf's death. However, he's guilty of a large number of indirect killings. He did use the Basilik to kill Myrtle which resulted in the creation of the diary horcrux.



I agree that he didn't kill any of these - though I might move Karkaroff to the questionable list because he'd still be a talented wizard.

Thank you, Perseus! I think I understand where you are coming from a bit better now.



I agree! I think this is how it happened as well. But since Hokey did admit to putting something in Hepzibah's drink, it makes it harder to prove that he, as a fact, did it.

Yes, but if he hadn't been possessing Quirrell, would Quirrell have died? No. So is this another indirect killing, or not?



Exactly! Those two I probably should've put in the "Probably Not" category, but since they are indirect, can we count them? I think not, but V's actions did result in their early deaths. Well, of Morfin's at least.

Right. But, can he get the credit for that when it was actually the Basilisk that did it? True, he was probably controlling the Basilisk, but the Basilisk roamed around Hogwarts in COS thirsting for a kill on its own. So it could be that he couldn't get the credit for the murder at all.



Hehehe. I left him on this list because I figured that V wouldn't be triapsing about chasing Karkaroff down.

I do think the the victims are significant, but another part of the reason that I believe a "preparation" of some kind must go into making a Horcrux is that it means the murder is pre-meditated.

I feel like there must be a distinction in the type of crime as it relates to creating a Horcrux.

My point is that a horcrux is a very dark piece of magic and the intentional splitting of the soul is a premeditated act. I feel like there will be a moral commentary in this from JKR... Kind of a reference to the most evil act is premeditated murder. So an act much worse that killing in self-defense (though I'm starting to think that Dumbledore wouldn't even do THAT, since he didn't really try to kill Voldy in the MoM).

Not sure if that makes sense.