Before anyone gets up in arms and starts shouting... I doubt my own theory to be true, however... some things don't add up...

First, I'm more and more convinced that the Marauder's Map is a key factor. I actually believe that it's a Horcrux more and more... One of the reasons that it can't be is because of Lupin saying they wrote it... But what if he's lying? If he is lying... then why? And then it all starts to come together...

Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs... Lupin, PP, Sirius, and James... The order suggests that Lupin was the one who came up with it, but what if...

What if he found the Map and they merely enchanted it to be unreadable? That map is a seriously powerful object, and I find it hard to believe that a bunch of Hogwarts students, however talented, could master the magic behind that if they took nearly 5 years to master their animagus forms. Wouldn't the teachers all have such a map if it were that easy?

Even Snape thought it must have dark magic associated with it... and rarely does such a line like that make the movies if it's not significant.

So Lupin was influenced along with PP by Voldy, through the original voice of the map... Voldemort's... To quote Arthur Weasley "How many times have I told you not to talk to something if you can't see where it keeps it's brain?"... The diary got Ginny... who knows what happened when Lupin found the map?

OK, so then I start going over all the things Lupin did along the way... How is it possible that he didn't see PP in on the map earlier than the whomping willow incident in PoA... How could he forget his potion on THAT night? How could he excuse not telling DD that Sirius was an animagus? He always gives explanations that are just ok, but we accept it because he's likable (because Harry likes him)...

But here's the kicker... Every DADA teacher did something unforgiveable to us, except him... From a literary standpoint, this level of inconsistency is structurally problematic, and JKR's structure has been almost flawless throughout the series... Is the point-of-view through which we see him clouded by Harry's need to connect to his dead parents?

Ok... now there are a few more things involved, but I'll stop for now...

Yes, I admit it's pretty ludicrous for loveable Lupin to be a bad guy, but I'm just saying, if you think about it, it's not entirely IMpossible...

Now here is a post that gets me thinking. I love it!!
I have always, too, thought there was more to the map than meets the eye. It's magic is powerful. If it was an easy thing to make the ministry would have had someone make them one so they could track down Voldemort. I think the map was Voldemorts. I don't know how it got into the hands of Moony, Prongs, Padfoot and Wormtail, but like you said, the magic and knowledge to make it would have to be extremly advanced. So it is unlikely they made it.

I believe it is a dark magical item. Snape would know. And it could be a horcrux. I wonder if it has some kind of bewitching power to it. The diary wrote words on paper before the eyes of the person writing in it, the map had similar qualities by words appearing before the person reading it.

I do like Lupin a lot, but I think there is going to be someone close to Harry, either in Hogwarts or one of his close friends that is, in fact on the dark side. Lupin dissapears for long periods of time to hang with Greyback and the werewolves....so he could be bad...............

It's entirely possible that our vision could be clouded by Harry, but if V. did create the Map, why is it so hard to believe that a group of kids the same age couldn't do it? I mean to say, V is just one person, but the Marauders were four. Four heads are better than one.

For how he didn't see PP on the Map, I have no explanation other than he wasn't looking for him. But even that can be argued against since he had to have perused the Map prior to the night of Sirius's arrival.

For how he forgot to take his potion, didn't it happen that Snape came in to Lupin's office to give him his potion, but saw the Map lying on Lupin's desk after Lupin had left it there to go after the Trio into the Whomping Willow? So if he didn't have his potion with him before leaving he couldn't he taken it.

Every teacher did something unforgiveable except him? Really? Okay, I've only read it once still so I don't remember much, but what did Slughorn do to Harry? I can't remember, but I didn't think he did anything directly to him.

As for impossible? Nope! Nothing is impossible with Jo.

Hey that is very possible, even when you said the bit about "How many times have I told you not to talk to something if you can't see where it keeps it's brain?". Ron cautioned Harry about the diary but not about the map.

Uh, I don't think Lupin could be evil... Otherwise he wouldn't be together with Tonks now, and be in the Order, and also being sad about DD's death... Ah nopes!

Well, when you think about it, there must be one more big twist/betrayal coming... Lupin to me seems a prime candidate, since he's been shunned by most of the wizarding community anyway. And if Lupin is deep under cover, he'd be acting like he was completely on the good side... Reminds me of Snape's story to a certain extent... I tend to think that in the balance of the overall story, if we have a Snape character, who seems evil, and in HBP did a terrible act but may yet turn out to be good, we need to have another character who seems good, has done good things in our (Harry's) eyes, but may turn out to be evil in the end. In the long run, Lupin may be the only possibility...

The Tonks relationship may actually support this theory, since he spent so much time trying to keep the relationship from starting... Maybe the only reason he let it happen is because he ran out of logical excuses, and it would have raised suspicion. If he were evil, he'd know that a relationship with someone else in the Order would make it difficult to keep cover, since he'd have someone more concerned with his comings and goings, so the fact that he fought against the relationship so much could be because of this factor...

As for being sad about DD's death, I wonder whether his reaction wasn't one of surprise at Snape being the killer, since he would have been suspicious of Snape's loyalties to Voldemort, like Bellatrix and others... Not to mention that if he were evil, he'd still ACT like he was sad wouldn't he, to maintain cover?

From WWW:

"if V. did create the Map, why is it so hard to believe that a group of kids the same age couldn't do it? I mean to say, V is just one person, but the Marauders were four. Four heads are better than one."

In response to this, I do believe that Voldemort has greater power than the four, else I'd bet that he would have been taken out long ago by something less powerful than Old magic, but also that he may not have created the map either... I wonder whether Voldemort found it in the Chamber of Secrets and made it a Horcrux like the diary, and that it was originally created by Slytherin to be used along with the basilisk for his heir to purge the school... I mean let's face it... Slytherin would have known that the basilisk's gaze would kill pureblood and muggle-born alike, so wouldn't he have wanted his heir to have the means to easily identify where the muggle-borns were? The map would have been the perfect tool to that end...

Also from WWW: "Every teacher did something unforgiveable except him? Really? Okay, I've only read it once still so I don't remember much, but what did Slughorn do to Harry? I can't remember, but I didn't think he did anything directly to him."

In this case, I was thinking about Snape's unforgivable act of killing DD, since he was DADA and Slughorn was Potions...

Now Nina, I admit I'm really not all that sold on this theory myself, but don't be quick to dismiss it, just because you like him... Remember again that we still only see that world through Harry's eyes, and Harry still thinks Lupin is the greatest. I could easily have reacted to my own theory, the same way I did to tealinkea's "crabbe and goyle good?" post, which is still just ludicrous.

Then again... I do like to flesh out these convoluted theories don't I?

But before I sign off for now... One more thing. In PoA, Lupin hadn't been in Azkaban for 12 years, and one would think that he had the presence of mind to know the right thing to do... Why was he so ready to let Sirius kill Pettigrew, and even to help? Why wouldn't he have pointed out the obvious, that only Peter's turning up alive would prove Sirius innocent? Could it be that he knew Peter would be able to identify him as a collaborator in the deaths of Lily and James?

I still think the best betrayer would be Hagrid, but I still don't think there is any possibility of that happening.



This I sort of agree and sort of don't. Yes, he made sure that he really persued his family history and learned all that he could. Yes he created a Horcrux at a tender age. And yes he did discover the Chamber of Secrets. But all that all took was real determination, ambition, a sense of need, a murderous desire and the ability to speak Parseltoungue. The Marauders never really had the sense of need that V. did, thus didn't have the same sort of ambition and determination that V. did. They did have those things, otherwise they never would've become Animagi, but I don't think they had the same needs behind that determination as V. did.

But where I agree with you is in what V. was willing to do to make his dreams be realized. He was far greater and willing to do anything more than the Marauders and that made him powerful and capable of things that the Marauders wouldn't have done. But then again, if they were in V.'s shoes, would they have done it? It's safe to say no since they had an inheritant goodness to them, but what if they didn't have that? Would any of them have been able to do what V. did? I think James and Sirius would at least. In which case they still would've needed the same magical prowess as V did to pull it all off. So I do believe that the Marauders together at least equal V, but when it comes to doing what is necessary, V was far more willing to do it and more powerful since he did.



See? I told you it had been too long! I didn't remember that Snape got the DADA job in HBP. I'm so used to him being in Potions it completely slipped my mind. Okay, if hubby drags me out camping this weekend I'm bringing HBP with me and reading it again.



For the first one I'll go with the obvious conclusion from the books, cause he cared about James and Lily. For the second one I say that one) he wasn't thinking that far ahead and 2) if he was, well, PP's dead body sitting on the floor would've been pretty convincing for me.



If this is the case though, wasn't hasn't PP tried to use it against Lupin? I mean, maybe he has, we never hear much of Lupin's life. But if it was me I'd totally be blackmailing him for all that I could.

A lot of great discussions going on and as always Perseus comes up with a great thought provoking theory. And WWW always has great answers. But... If Hagrid is bad I'll dance down a driveway....

As for Lupin. In my heart I really don't think JK would throw this kind of wrench in the pot. It to me just doesn't add up. Perseus makes some great points, but after the fiasco with Dumbledore dead or alive I'm going to stick with the Lupin is a good guy and Snape is a creep!!

I do enjoy stirring up possibilities... even the ones I don't really believe, but in the end, I'm betting at least one of my crazy theories will be true...

Still, if given the choice between Lupin turning out bad and Snape turning out good, I'd bet on Snape being a good guy...

In any case, I recognize that this one is way too uphill a battle to fight, since I could argue against Lupin being bad as easily as I can argue for it...

I think mostly, I'm just tired of waiting for more HP books, and the best way to pass the time is to try and figure out what those twists will be... The fact is I may be just as guilty as the one-liner topic writer in some ways. But at least I can back my silliness up with tidbits from the books...

WWW, I still think there will be a revealed power that Voldy has that makes him superior to all others... AND I think it will be directly related to the fact that he's a half-blood... I'm betting one of JKR's allegorical points will be that the idea of maintaining purity of blood reduces power, and the addition of muggle blood is what adds to the power of a pureblood family... Snape, Voldy, Tonks and Harry are all examples of this...

But that is a topic for next month... :)

Perseus, you always have great posts with good theories. It makes for an excellent read, and you could be right. And anyway, you aren't sitting back, like me, waiting for a good topic to open so you can discuss it. You are trying to make things interesting and getting good discussions up.

Thanks My Pensieve.

I would love to be able to figure it all out before book 7 comes out, though I guess that might kind of ruin some of the twists, but I imagine JKR has plenty that we'll never see coming... So I'll keep throwing them out there.

Hopefully someone else's brain will click the other pieces in place because of my help...

In a way, I guess I should thank tealinkea for throwing out silly posts, since it's because of the crabbe and goyle topic that got me thinking about good people that could be bad...

That's okay, Perseus. Just please keep giving us the theories you come up with cause you make the wait so much more tolerable.



I like the idea, I really do! Jo's mentioned before how a lot of the pure-blood stuff is all loosely based on racism and I can totally see her continuing to keep the idea and making it very strong as she has thus far till the end of the Series.

Oooh... Just thought of something... so far, everyone in the series with a mustache has hidden something from Harry maliciously... Uncle Vernon, Barty Crouch Sr...

Did Lupin have a mustache in the books? I don't think he did, but he did in the movie... Just adding silly fuel to the fire.

And yes, WWW, I really hope JKR resolves the pureblood elitism with something ironic, like that muggle blood is an important part of a wizard's power...

Hmm... maybe Snape became obsessed with potions in order to prove something about the power of mixing wizard blood and muggle blood.

What were you getting at about the mustache bit? I did'nt understand.

I love it! But in all seriousness, I flipped through the pages when we first meet Lupin and didn't see a description of him having one. And I don't recall him having one either in any of the other books. But I could easily be mistaken.



That people with mustaches aren't necessarily the best people, like Vernon and Crouch Sr.

Oh i get it thanks, i now think it is a movie mistake. Where in the movie they change it from the book. If you get which road im driving at. I can't reccall anyone with a mustache that is nice.

Hmmmmm...Lupin evil?! AHHHHH! I'm shocked! Haha! Well, everything's possible for Jo, so I don't think I'll be that suprised if it turns out true, but Jo has her ways of suprising. Anyway, back on topic, I don't remember Lupin ever having a mustache in the books , but I hate when the movies mess with our minds!

Well I hate it when the movies mess with us too, but I sometimes wonder whether the differences in the movies are clues to what will happen in the books...

In working with Steve Kloves, JKR may get opporutnities to make adjustments here and there to the story in the screenplays that she didn't get to do in the books... or things she's changed her mind about... So (and yes, in this case it's a bit unlikely) maybe she wanted to add the clue about Lupin's evilness by giving him a mustache... I wonder if maybe there's a scene in the book that didn't make the movie screenplay that would clue us in...

I'm getting ready for another read through... Halloween usually starts me off with PS/SS and hopefully I'll be done again with all 6 books before the Order of the Phoenix movie comes out... But I'll look for clues like that.... Actually anyone who wants me to look for evidence of another crackpot theory, let me know, and I'll keep an eye out... I'll even see if maybe it looks like Crabbe and Goyle are actually good (For instance, Scabbers/Pettigrew bit Goyle once, so maybe Goyle's a good guy )

A good example is that Snape instinctually protected Harry, Ron and Hermione from werewolf Lupin in the PoA movie, but didn't in the books... I always have found that to be a sign of Snape's goodness, even though it's only the movie. It's also why I chose that image as my avatar...

I actually think the scenes that they include in the movie and are in the books are clues, but that idea is all messed up in my mind!

I like this theory because I could never ever stretch my mind to suspect Lupin. He is as Perseus said, just so dang likeable!

And it's for that reason (and the fact that he's got to be one of my favourite characters and I feel and insane urge to hug him whenever I read his name) that I've got to stickup for him here.

If Lupin were evil, even if he was acting as a spy, there would be no need for Moldie Voldie to use Barty Jnr to get to Harry. The whole process with the Goblet of Fire was a very long and convoluted way of getting to Harry and would have been entirely unnecessary if Lupin was on the dark side. Lupin had an established friendship with Harry and could easily have enticed Harry to visit him alone and pick up a random object that functioned as a portkey. Also, there are all those times where Voldie has attempted to kill Harry.. there are so many instances where Lupin could have either taken Harry to Voldemort or tried to kill Harry himself. Essentially this is probably one of the reasons why I think Snape too isn't working for Voldemort, because he's never taken those opportunities either. You could argue that both of them want to maintain their position as spies and that under Dumbledore's nose that meant they couldn't take those opportunities but frankly, that argument doesn't stand here. If Lupin took Harry to Voldemort and Voldie killed Harry, Remus could easily spin a story telling of his innocence to Dumbledore. And Voldie never thinks he's going to loose, so he probably wouldn't even about how he'd also be loosing a good spy if the whole fiasco didn't turn out in his favour.

Besides, two out of James' three friends turning against him? He'd either have had to be a very, very cruddy friend to them both or have very poor character judgement! Sure, I can understand Peter's betraayl - it doesn't seem like James or Sirius treated him with much respect when they were friends, but Lupin and James really seemed tight.

Well...it could be possible that Lupin changed greatly after James died?! I say this reluctanty because 1)I wouldn't want Harry to lose his, now, closest fatherly, for lack of a better word, friend and 2)he just seems too nice!

I don't think he is evil, for all the reasons above and just the fact that I think that part of the book was to prove that not all wearwolves are bad, and that would be contridictory.

I know this was awhile back but about the mustache bit: The pictures aren't always the same but (I'm not sure) I think at a begining of a chapter there is a picture of lupin and he has a mustache. Maybe that is just my weird memory but I think its true. I better check.

EDIT: 3rd book Chapter 14 Page 269...............lupin with a mustache

If the map was a horocrux and Lupin is bad, why did he give the map BACK to harry in POA??

I don't think Lupin is evil, simply because I have no reason at all to suspect him. Look at the way he treated Nevill when even McGonagal often got frustrated with him, when he spoke of Greyback he spoke with such loathing. I doubt Lupin would want to ally himself with Greyback. And isn't JKR trying to show us not all werewolves are bad? Why go back on her own words?

The way Lupin talked to Peter, with loathing and hatred at what he had done to his best friend. He welcomed Sirius back with open arms, not exactly something a D.E would do.

As for the moutasche thing. I think we are forgetting the fact that Snape, Voldemort and the like did not have a moutasche. Hagrid does though, but that is not a reason to suspect him.

As for the DADA teacher thing, Slughorn didn't do anything to Harry either.

And have we ever heard of Lupin bearing the dark mark?

Don't forget that Jo doesn't illustrate the books, so it may be misleading, but what do I know about publishing books?

Anyway, I don't think that Lupin is evil just because I don't think that Jo is evil enough to take away Harry's fatherly figure.

The books I have, and for that fact Im pretty sure none of the books here in australia, don't have illustration. So if it was important I'm sure JKR would have written it not just relied on an illustration.

Okay, if you're talking about the illustration at the beginning of the chapter of the US version, (you can see a photo here), then I believe that is Snape and not Lupin. At least, in previous times, when I've seen Jo's illustrations of Snape, that's what he looked like. The title of that chapter is 'Snape's Grudge'.

I definitely agree with Dij, that is Snape, never even gave it a thought that it could be Lupin. Nope one little thought.

Lupin is not evil in my mind. Period. Saying there's an illustration of Lupin and it really being Snape just kills me! I never thought that was Lupin, either.

Ok maby it is snape, but I always thought it was lupin! and I said that the illistrations aren't always right.

I jsut wanted to point that out, and just for the record: I do not think lupin is evil, nor will he turn evil. I think that that would be cruel not to just us but to all the charactors in the story.



He might not have known that the map was a horocrux.
But I don't think that the map is a horocrux

I started this topic... Now I wish I hadn't.

Lupin's not evil. I've reread PoA and there's just no reasonable way for him to be evil. The theory is folly.

It's now officially more likely that Crabbe and Goyle are secretly working for Dumbledore...

No but I'm glad you did, it was interesting, and although I agree about you that it is folly, it was still soooo much fun to show to my mom and see her face, Lupin is her favorite charactor.

Could Fleur, Mundugus, Moody, etc... be evil? I know, that there are no resons, why they should not be evil, when Snape killed Dumbledore and everyone thought, that he was not evil. But I thing, that you are looking for a problem also in cases, where there is not a big chance to be there.

Ahhhhhh, but everyone did not think that Snape wasn't evil, there are alot of people that do think he is evil.
But back on topic......looking for problems? Maybe not so much as looking for possibilities, because you never know. I never thought Sirius would die, yet he did, so while highly improbable, you can never be 100% shure.

Here is another sort of theory: What if to help the order Lupin goes undercover, sorta like Snape but with out the order going. Of course he couldn't just walk in there but if he got himself caught and than in exchange for his life or something agreed to join Voldamort, but it was all an act on lupins part to get info and the order didn't know so no one could use veritisyrum (sp?) or anything on them to get the truth. Than Lupin would seem evil but not be evil.

It's possible. I would definitely support this theory rather than the Lupin is evil theory any day! No offense meant to Perseus! It's really a great topic, actually! I'm not saying that I support enara's theory, but it makes more sense than "Lupin is evil", but all the same this is an interesting discussion.

Yep, If Lupin turned out to be evil I think I would probobly cut myself off form Harry Potter entierly!!! Except for this forum of course, and others, and the fan fiction, and the games.

If you all would have read the above then you'd see that Perseus has stated he now feels lupin isn't evil. So I think it's time to quit beating a dead horse.

I don't support the theory myself, but if others wish to discuss it, just because the starter of the topic doesn't feel that way others might and would obviously still like to discuss it seeing as they continue to post in this topic.

Now it's become a topic about topics!

Everyone is welcome to continue to discuss it, however I would prefer that those who seem to be addressing me directly as the topic starter would AT LEAST do us all the service of reading through the thread to see the conclusions drawn. I don't believe Lupin can be evil... I really never did... I was bored... the boards were dead...

It's sometimes a bit maddening on this board, when people choose to reply to the topic without reading through it in its entirety. It's especially funny when they present a thought as if they're the first one to come up with it, but that same thought was provided by the first person to respond to the topic...

Yes I know, some topics have pages upon pages, but at least read the most recent posts!

Imagine if you started a conversation about quidditch and after a couple pages, it progresses to "why was Marcus Flint still on the team in PoA, when he was supposed to be a sixth year in PS/SS??", when suddenly a new person comes in and says abruptly... "I LOVE quidditch!!!"

Okay...that's too weird, but Perseus is right. Read through the pages even if you just have to scan them!

Anyway, back on topic, I don't think Lupin is evil! I sound so random.

Perseus, I had this huge response typed out to you, but decided that as a Mod, it was inappropriate for me to post. Let me just say that I also find it amusing and leave it at that, lol.

As for the topic itself, nearly everybody seems to be of the same mind, Lupin is not evil. So I really don't feel the need for the topic at all and think I'll close it. Yeah, that's what I'll do. Topic closed!