Would you consider snape to be bad? He did help Harry and was truly faithful to the order but he was really rude (being the nice way to put it) to harry , sirius, and all of the gryffindors. The part that i remember most is when malfoy tries to curse harry but it hits hermione instead causing her teeth to grow and when harry shows snape he says he sees no difference. EVIL!

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Snape was on the right side for the wrong reason. The sole reason for his loyalty to DD and to the Order was because of his love for Lilly. He never claimed to regret the deaths of any others he killed or witnessed being killed. He was loyal to Voldemort, loyal enough to be one of his favourites, his most trusted and I'm positive that would have involved him commiting some truely evil acts. Snape joined the Death Eaters willingly, he was not forced to. He was perfectly content with the life he led until he found out Lilly's life was in danger. It was this that made him turn. Of course he knew Harry and James' lives were in danger also but he could not care less, their deaths would have just been another two tallies for Voldemort to brag about.

Look outside of his loyalties. Remember how he treated Nevile with such cruelty and hatred? And Snape knew full well about Neville's parents.

The fact that he turned purely to save one person that he cared about, does not make him good nor does his service to Lord Voldemort make him evil. Like Sirius said, "the world isn't split into good people and death eaters".

I don't know, that's kind of a good question. In the seventh book it DOES say that he cared for Harry...he just was sore showing it because of his hatred of his dad. Now, don't get me wrong, I love James Potter, but doesn't Snape have a RIGHT to despising Sirius because of what they went through in their days? Maybe he doesn't have a right to always harp on Harry so badly, but really...bad memories in his past...but doesn' that make him bad becuase he can just put it behind?

And I agree with what Sirius says as well, "The world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters."

nah, snape isnt bad, hes just a dude tryin to make it in the world, he chooses whats right and wrong in his mind. Thats all that matters, if its good by his standard, who care what anybody else thinks? If eh thinks that helping voldemort is right, then its right; therefore, there are no "bad guys."

If helping Voldemort means killing people, ending the life of someone else, that makes him a bad guy. Cold blooded murder can never be considered good.

No, for what he did was good in the end ,and i was very surprised about what was going on with the relationship between Snape and Dumbledore, and i'm very sad that he died. He was only doing this for Lily and Harry

But in his mind he was doing it for Lily. Harry was just a product of Lily and James' love and for that I think is the reason that Snape was so cruel to Harry (as well as portraying that he was truly evil to Voldemort).

Snape was mean and vindictive as far as I was concerned. He never grew out if his hatred for James hence he took it out on Harry. Though some would say he treated everyone that wasn't in his house the same, and it also made him look good in Voldemorts eyes to treat Harry bad. I'd still rather think of him as a very bitter man.

I think he was just somewhat...deluded, after the death of Lily as well. She was the only thing he cared about and once Voldemort killed her he lost everything. So, he changed his whole life just to avenge Lily's death and make sure that Voldemort died. And in doing that he died to.

And he didn't bat an eyelid that James was dead. Even if James was mean to him that's no excuse.

I see Snape a little differently from the opinions of my fellow forum writers.

I see that Snape was a snotty little toe rag as a school boy. He thought it was cool to belong to the gang of Death Eaters. What do gang members do? They get tattoos. Cool! They have wicked little things they do to people. They have mean things they say to others. They are bullies. They think they're better than everyone else.

When Snape got out of school, he still felt that way about Lord Voldemort and his gang. Until Lily was threatened. I think deep inside that Snape knew Lily was the only person in the world who ever truly liked him. The members of his gang didn't like him. But Lily did. And he himself ruined that relationship by spouting off one of the words the members of his gang used, "Mud Blood!"

So, when she died I think that Snape truly saw what his gang was up to. He finally understood what was going on. His eyes were opened. And since the only person who ever loved him was dead and he had nothing to lose except his own life, he was willing to spend 16 years living a lie to make up for it. He made Dumbledore promise not to tell anyone that he was on the right side. If anyone knew, then it was possible that members of his gang could find out that he'd changed sides. And then he wouldn't be able to avenge Lily.

I think he had an extremely difficult life. To be one thing inside yet have to show another face to the world all day every day? That's tough. It's his love for Lily that he carried with him for all those 16 years (after she died) that enabled him to have the strength to carry on.

I cried when he died - before even reading the part about his past! Then I cried again after reading that part.

Snape was an extremely complex character who had to make terrible choices to continue to live so that he could avenge Lily. I think a large part of his meanness comes from the double life he was living. He had to work hard to stay in character. Being mean to Neville, Harry, Hermione, and anyone else was part of the act.

Well, that's what I think, anyway.

Very well said!

Is it so horrible that I didn't get upset when he died? LOL. It's not that I'm not understanding, I cried when everyone else died (Fred! *cries again*) but Snape...
Look he didn't deserve to die. But he didn't just 'fall in' with the wrong crowd. He wanted that crowd. And he couldn't care less about Harry or James, it was all for Lilly. And poor Neville...There was no justification for that expecially as Snape would have known what happened to his parents.

I also thought that maybe his attitude to Neville came from his own guilt at being involved with the DE that did it. I dunno I will think some more but to sum it up;

POA thinks- Snape - on good side- for wrong reasons
Killed innocent people as a DE - bad
Treatment of Neville - bad
Attitude to Harry and James- bad (although James' justifyable, still death it a bit far to go)
Loyalty to DD (albeit ONLY because of Lilly)- good.

Sorry if none of this makes sense, I'm doing assignments as a type.
*cough* I think Snapes a twit *cough*

I also didn't cry when Snape died, but I can see where others would. I like you felt that him being a professor and an adult could have at least put aside his hostility towards people like Neville and Hermione.

Man I just LOVE Snape!! He was such a complex character, and such a jerk!! LOL

Snape is definately a hard person to work feelings out for.

Initially I only put him slightly above Wormtail. In the end, Snape did do the right things, but for all the wrong reasons. Not because he cared about a cause, he just wanted his own peace of mind that conveniently worked to Dumbledore and the Order's favor.

However, the more I think and dwell on the issue the more confused I get in how I view him.

We all agree that Snape got the short end of the stick as a kid. Miserable home life, few or no friends, and bullying by James and his fellow Marauders. Naturally some of this is going to stay with a person for a long time. I'm sure there are plenty of you out there that have people from school you could care less if you ever see again. So I can certainly sympathize with Snape in that aspect.

Now, does that give him a right to be a git towards Harry? No. Although in a twisted way I can sort of condone it. For the most part, Harry is definately his father's son. Perhaps not as cocky as James given he had to grow up with the Dursleys, but still a healthy disregard of the rules. I think that while Snape went overboard, his desire was to try and keep Harry in check to hopefully pevent Harry turning into his father all over again.

My apologies to the moderators for the consecutive posts, but I wanted to add something else that I think stands apart from the last post.

I looked up the requirements for a character to be considered a tragic hero/character. So, using what I came across on Wikipedia, I thought I would see if Snape meets the criteria.

1. Nobility. Either by birth or by wisdom.
While not noble in the sense he was a member or royalty such as a king, duke, baron, etc., he was decended from a pure-blood mother. Which for some in the wizarding world, pure-blood should make you royalty. That and his nickname was Half-Blood Prince. Kind of a stretch, but I'll take it.

2. A mistake in the character's actions or personality that leads to downfall
Snape definately meets this requirement. He chose to ally himself with Voldemort in the beginning. While in the end he did join the good side, that initial decision set in motion events that caused his own death years later.

3. A reversal in fortune due to the second criteria.
Again this applies to Snape. Lily was the best friend Snape would ever have. Yet his choice to associate with Voldemort and other Death Eaters caused Snape to not only lose Lily's friendship, but to lose Lily as well. (The criteria just says a change in fortune, never said hid had to a be a positive change.)

4. Self-discovery that the change in fortune was through his actions and not outside influence.
Three times this happens to Snape. First is when Lily starts to grow apart from him while in school. Although, he doesn't realize the situation for what it is at that point. He next realizes it when he learns of Voldemort's plan to kill Harry and his parents. Finally, there is the standard deathbed realization of one's past actions.

5. The audience must feel a sense of dramatic irony for the character.
Snape passes this test as well. Until the very end most of us believed Snape to be a villain. It wasn't until the end that the truth was revealed.

So, based on these characteristics, I would classify Snape as a good guy, though in his own tragic way.

From Wiki:


The article goes on to list other common traits of tragic heros/characters. I welcome you all to try and match up examples of how Snape fits the trait (or not). While common, these are not the main tests for if a character is tragic or not.

The hero must suffer more than he deserves.
The hero must be doomed from the start, but bears no responsibility for possessing his flaw.
The hero must be noble in nature, but imperfect so that the audience can see themselves in him or her.
The hero must have discovered his fate by his own actions, not by things happening to him.
The hero must see and understand his doom, and that his fate was revealed by his own actions.
The hero's story should arouse fear and empathy.
The hero must be physically or spiritually wounded by his experiences, often resulting in his death.
Ideally, the hero should be a king or leader of men, so that his people experience his fall with him.
The hero must be intelligent enough to have the opportunity to learn from his mistakes.
The hero must have a weakness, usually hubris, a subtle but irreversibly tragic form of pride.
The hero must be faced with a very serious decision.
The suffering of the hero must have meaning.
A tragic hero's story generally follows a sequence of "Great, Good, Flaw, Downfall."
The Shakespearean tragic hero must die at some point in the story.
(Macbeth for example. Shakespeare's characters illustrate that tragic heroes are neither fully good nor fully evil.)

I've generally been reluctant to add to this thread, since it's no secret that Snape is my favorite character, and though most of my predictions turned out to be wrong, my gut on Snape was pretty close. And no, he still wasn't Harry's long lost uncle Perseus, but that was a fun one.

Anyway, I think FW has taken the discussion to a new level, so here goes.

I think the "tragic hero" label is pretty spot on, when we take the story from an objective perspective.

What's most interesting to me, is that JKR's choice to present nearly the entire series from Harry's point of view made Snape possibly one of the most enigmatic and effective characters ever written (ok... maybe that's an exaggeration, but she definitely managed to create the effect she wanted).

By putting us in Harry's shoes, most of us had problems seeing Snape as a noble character, but also we had problems seeing Harry's flaws in much the same way.

Because we see Harry's motives clearly, his actions, which were often thoughtless, wreckless and selfish, we look past those character flaws. Similarly, with Snape, we had no window into his motivation, so we're much less forgiving. And I think that was her intent.

I sometimes wonder if it would be interesting (fan fiction assignment coming) to try to rewrite the series, following Snape's progress, rather than Harry's. It would be impossible to find an impartial judge, but I wonder if we might see Harry as a bad character until the very end of the Prince's extended Tale...

Everyone pretty much knows how I felt about Snape; well to some extent that is...

Fizzing Whizzbee and Perseus brought a lot, and I mean a lot, of thought to my feelings.

Complex character he definitely was, and Tragic Hero is exactly spot on.

Like Fizzing Whizzbee said you could almost condone his actions with Harry, and at times I agreed, except in Harry's first year; he was innocent about the whole situation he was in, after that his arrogance did grow, but I feel deservingly so. But, Snape was still the adult and he should have acted like one at least with students like Hermione, Neville, and Ron; I felt they were punished just because they were friends of Harry’s.

Complex... the complexity of his situation, which I will say he was caught between a rock and a hard place, is when it came to how he was *expected* to respond to situations by Dumbledore. (That is an interaction I would have like JK to delve into more.) Yet he was expected to act another way by the *dark* side. So he was in a very complex situation.

Tragic Hero... He was a hero, and it was tragic how it had to play out. He was an unsung hero hated by many.

I loved the character of Snape, and my first perception of him was wrong, yet I changed my opinion of him after DD's death only to go back to saying I didn't trust him.

I think, in my minds eye, if all were to be told, Snape at any given time could have easily been persuaded to go to Voldemorts side. I can see the story going on to say that the reason Snape stuck with Dumbledore is because Voldemort was way too powerful and dangerous, and Snape felt to go to that would be turning too much power over to someone who would kill you without even thinking twice. So in Snapes best interest he stuck with Dumbledore.

Tragic Hero... The tragedy started when he was a young boy, and never left his side except after death.

And though I loved the character of Snape, I still didn't like him. LOL

Well I'm certainly glad that I could bring something new to the conversation.

You're welcome, and thanks!

Baty... I wasn't going to point out your changing opinion on Snape, since I've seen you go from "He's alright, really..." to "Hate him... Hope Hagrid gets a hold of him..." to the best of all "Love him, but don't like him."

But that's my point on how effective the character was. You were supposed to lose faith in him. We all were supposed to participate in Harry and the rest's hatred of him for killing DD.

The amazing thing is that every book had the "reread" factor. What I mean is that the second time around you'd see all the little things you missed, and think... "I should have known..." I.E. Moody and the polyjuice potion... Lupin as a werewolf...

But with Snape, she achieved that feeling across the series. Upon my reread, I saw Snape in a different light. Frankly I started to see his point of view of Harry. Here's a kid who represents the greatest mistake of his life. Of course he's going to have trouble keeping perspective, but at the end of the day, he still kept his word and protected him, despite the similarity in look to his arch enemy, the man who married his only true love. I saw him make his half-hearted attempts with Harry, and gave him credit for trying ("Good luck today Potter, although after a mountain troll a round of quidditch should be easy, even if it is against Slytherin")

I saw Snape's humiliation at knowing Harry had dived into his pensieve full of memories, and sympathized with his refusal to continue the occlumency fiasco.

And for some reason, the duel with McGonnagal was a huge moment for me, knowing that he was desperately trying to help, but enduring her shouts of cowardice, even though he'd refused to use any dark spells against her. I realized that moment was the ultimate cause of his death. Had he had the opportunity to talk to Harry at that moment, he might never have had to return to Voldy's side...

Or perhaps even an anti-hero.


The way he treats Neville, favouratism, cruelty.


Well at least the helpless bit. I think Snape really was helpless, betray Voldemort risk certain death, betray the Order risk certain death

Well I guess one could argue that he lives a life of lies. Secrecy etc


Definatly! Killing Dumbledore saved Draco from doing it etc

Only problem is he's not the Protagonist.

I totally agree and would not ever deny my flip flop of Snape. I always loved the character, but didn't like Snape as a person no matter what the end result. I could see his resentment of Harry and could even see him treating him horrible, but that still didn't excuse his actions towards other students.

He was a sad character, whose resentment of the world led him to act the way he did. He really needed counseling. lol

I must say Baty that that statement has to be a classic!! I cried from laughing so much!! 'Snape needs counselling' Brilliant, brilliant. .

This has most definitely become a very interesting topic...

In my heart, I've always tried to feel that Snape wasn't all bad.

Regarding him becoming a gangster, he was most open to this (but not of his own doing).

Many kids who end up in gangs are those who don't really have the attention/love from their parents. Therefore, the gangs bring them in because they know the kid is vulnerable. The gang becomes the family the kid never had. They get the attention and praise that the kid craves.

We all saw that Snape did not get the love and attention he should have. Imagine what kind of person he could have become if he'd been brought up with Mrs. Weasley as his mother. Therefore, he went to those that would give him some type of attention. I think he did get some attention from Lilly, but it just wasn't enough. She seemed to keep him at arm's length. And when she ended up with the those who treated him badly, it must have hurt him deeply. He came from a very dysfunctional family who didn't know how to give affection, so he had no example to learn from. Dumbledore, of course, knew this, and gave Snape much praise and affection; this is something Snape would not have received from Voldemort, and is probably another reason that Snape would not go to him.

Such a lonely, isolated, and sad child he was. And the one love he had went to someone he detested and was killed by the person he worked for with his inadvertent help. His self-loathing must have been substantial. This self-hatred was, I believe, very much directed at Harry. Harry, of course, was the representation of Snape's largest mistake. Each time, I imagine, he looked at Harry, the loathing towards himself must have grown and grown.

Most definitely the tragic hero personified.

I think that Snapes attitude towards Ron, Hermione & Neville was totally out of order. It seems that they were treated in that way simply 'by association' (with Harry). His attitude towards Harry in the beginning was, maybe, understandable, he did after all look so much like his father, a face he hated. But as time went on I don't think Snape can be blamed that much for how he felt towards Harry, because at this point Harry was not only giving him a load of back chat but his attitude toward him was just as arrogant and overbearing as his fathers had been and I think that that made matters much worse. If Harry had behaved with Snape the way he behaved with other teachers maybe Snape would have come to see more of Lily in him and less of James and their relationship could have been a little more 'respectful' towards each other. It's a shame really because Snape could have taught Harry so much, he was an incredibly powerful wizard. Good or bad? Maybe, misunderstood, insecure, heartbroken and unloved?

Why thank you, I thought it was pretty good myself. lol

I can forgive Snape's treatment of Neville, but only so far as I can forgive him for his treatment of Harry.

Remember that Neville was the other possible subject of the prophecy, and Snape knows that if Neville had be Voldy's choice, Lily would still be alive (or at least not killed that way).

And on the "guilty-by-association" subject, I think that he saw anyone who was associated with Harry as another group of Marauders. Neville probably reminded Snape a bit of Wormtail, so that may have added to his disdain.

As Dij says (and Dumbledore too...) people are a product of what they have experienced, but Snape's choice to rise above those limitations is a brave and heroic one. Yes Dumbledore, you sort too early...

That first interaction with Snape in the first potions lesson, Harry did show a streak of arrogance. True Snape was picking on him, but Harry chose to talk back and fell into Snape's own self-fulfilling prophecy. I think for Snape, he was happier/found it easier finding something of James to hate than to feel the pain of seeing Lily in Harry.

I also go back to one of my theories on Harry being a natural Legillimens (thanks to Voldy's soul fragment) as a reason he hated Snape. Snape kept a closed mind via Occlumency and Harry, naturally being able to feel the motivations of those around him (every time I reread the series, I've noticed more and more occasions where Harry has an uncanny ability to read people's real motivations) in most cases, felt that his inability to perceive Snape meant that Snape was hiding something. Harry always assumed it to be something malicious, but Snape was trying to hide his feelings for Lily.

So to sum up... Snape needs therapy Baty. Call St Mungo's!

They have a room ready and waiting for him!

SPOILERS AHEAD, READ AT YOUR OWN RISK
Yes, definitely! He's not just BAD, he's EVIL! He was one of my least favorite characters in the whole series, I couldn't STAND him. I mean, when I read The Prince's Tale, I felt like putting my arms around him, he made me so sad, but then I remembered all the disgusting stuff he's done his whole life, and putting all the psychological BS aside (child abuse, social unacceptance, etc), everyone falls in love, so just because he fell for Lily doesn't mean he's a saint all of a sudden. People do crazy things for love - trust me.
Kiara.

The thing about Snape, was that all the way through the series, Snape was a "bad guy". I hated him, as through the novel, I placed myself in Harry's shoes and I thought he was horrible... And when we thought he was on Voldemorts side, I despised him, and so wish'd Harry could get a curse in at him, at the fight they had in THBP.

To suddenly have him turn good, is out of the ordinary, though I had my theories...I did start to like Snape near the end of DH, for obviouse reasons, but all the way through the books, he made Harrys life heck.

So, to conclude, I'm half and half!

See my problem is it was such an obvious choice to make Snape 'good'. All through the books it was "Dumbledore knows something we don't but we have to trust him". So...I decided rather then term him good or evil, I gave him his own definition. And that is that Snape does whatever is best for Snape.



Definatly true. And again it was what was best for Snape. You know he could have seen Lilly in Harry and treated Harry with some respect or kindness. But no it was easier for Snape to treat him horribly.

Well before I read the Deathly Hallows i hated Snape with all my might...
but then i found out he was loyal all along i thought he was very brave.
the reason why snape was rude to harry because of james potter